Lee Oswald The Cop Killer

[Martin Weidmann]

If you read it, read carefully. It doesn't mean what Martin would like you to believe.

When you boil it down and winnow out the irrelevancies, the FUD, and the hypothetical worst-case scenarios, you have two statements by Bowles that sum up the situation:

1.)  "it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the 'official' time shown on the master clock" [note defensive use of litotes here, by the way]
2.)  "When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments." 
   
So Bowles says the dispatcher clocks were kept within two minutes of City Hall time, and also within a minute of each other. The dispatcher clocks are consistent to within a minute, which is the important thing. I've already noted earlier in this thread that the timestamp data from the channel one and two demonstrate the dispatcher clocks were within a minute of each other that day. Frances Cason, a telephone operator in the DPD dispatch office, also said that the clocks were kept within a minute of each other. It's not perfect agreement between the different clocks, but they have don't have to be exactly in sync in order to be useful for our purpose here. And, yes, things would occasionally break down or otherwise get out of that within-a-minute sync, but those occasions were exceptions. You can claim Nov 22 was one of those exceptional days, but then you need to present evidence for it. Bowles himself was the supervisor of the dispatch center. Later, he spent a great deal of time pouring over the Dictabelt when he prepared the original channel one transcripts. And yet, he can't point to a single such exception. Imagine that.

As for the other timepieces involved in this desultory little play:

Bowley is quoted by "Into the Nightmare," saying his watch could have been five minutes off.

Markham's "time" is only an estimate offered well after the fact by a woman who didn't know what time her bus was supposed to have shown up. An estimate based on her observation of a laundromat clock at some point before she set off to catch a bus. She's just guessing.

Lottie Thompson was the Methodist Hospital ER nurse whom Martin brings into the conversation from time to time. In the 70's, she told Earl Golz that the clock in the Methodist ER was 15 minutes behind on November 22.

If you want to pin your hopes on any of these timepieces agreeing with "real time", good luck. You'll need it.

On a related note, it's worth noting that Callaway's attempt to use the Car 10 radio begins about two and a half minutes running time after the beginning of Bowley's transmission on the channel one recording. Callaway's transmission had to have occurred shortly before the ambulance's arrival but the Dudley Hughes ambulance logs showed that it arrived on scene at 1:18 their time, so the DH clock has to be behind DPD channel one time by a minute or two .

If you read it, read carefully. It doesn't mean what Martin would like you to believe.

That's weird, because I just quoted the man without giving an opinion and - unlike you - wasn't trying to spin it.

When you boil it down and winnow out the irrelevancies, the FUD, and the hypothetical worst-case scenarios, you have two statements by Bowles that sum up the situation:

1.)  "it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the 'official' time shown on the master clock" [note defensive use of litotes here, by the way]
2.)  "When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments." 

And here is me thinking he actually said;

"When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done."

You must have missed that last bit, right?

Lottie Thompson was the Methodist Hospital ER nurse whom Martin brings into the conversation from time to time. In the 70's, she told Earl Golz that the clock in the Methodist ER was 15 minutes behind on November 22.

First of all, I have never brought up Lottie Thompson and, secondly, Methodist Hospital only had one clock? Really?

Also, DPD officer Davenport (who, unlike Mr. Todd, was actually present at the hospital when all this happened) presented to the DPD identification bureau a button from Tippit's uniform and a bullet taken from his corpse at 1:30. So, if the nurse was correct, they took a bullet from Tippit's body when he was not even declared DOA. Really?

Anyway, Davenport wrote in his own hand on the form that Tippit had been declared DOA at 1:15. Go figure.... now why would he lie on day one?

[Bill Brown]

Once again; I don't need your explanation. I need you to show me where in his testimony McWatters said it.

I already explained this; so did several other members.  Scroll back about thirty pages for a look.

[Mitch Todd]

[...]
602 then tries to make a call but is interrupted by Callaway. The call could have been to tell the dispatcher they were Code 5 to the Methodist Hospital. I think the amount of interactions between 602 arriving at the scene and Callaway placing his call make it clear there was enough time for Callaway to help load Tippit into the ambulance before he made the call.
No other ambulance arrives during this time.

Two things, if someone else hasn't already pointed this out:

1.) Callaway said that he tried to use the radio because he didn't know whether the shooting had been reported. However, the ambulance's presence would have been definitive proof that the shooting had indeed been reported, and that there was no reason for Callaway to break in on channel one.

2.) Callaway made clear that the transmission was the first action he took once he got to the scene. If he'd helped load Tippit into the ambulance first, then he wouldn't have said that the radio was the first thing he went for.

There isn't enough information in the abortive 602 transmissions during this time to determine exactly what 602 was trying to say. Any interpretation is going to be guesswork.

It is interesting to note that around 1:22 PM 602 makes the call "602 in service" which, I assume, means they have dropped Tippit off at the Methodist Hospital. This would indeed give an approximate time of 3 minutes for the journey to have been made between the murder scene and the Methodist Hospital. It would also indicate the DPD time calls were about two minutes off (if the 1:24 PM time is independent from the DPD time calls)

As far as I've been able to find, "In service" tends to mean two things: that someone just fired up their radio, or that someone just tuned into the channel from another frequency. That is, it seems to be related to the status of the radio rather than the status of the unit itself. 

Also, the ambulance stayed at Methodist once they dropped Tippit off. Once Tippit's body had been released to the county, the same crew loaded his body up again and drove it to Parkland for the autopsy.

[Dan O'meara]

Benevides makes his unsuccessful call on Tippit's radio

One minute later Bowley makes his call.

Two minutes after this Callaway makes his call


Way too simplistic.

Let's add times to it.

Benavides said that he waited in his truck until the killer had disappeared on Patton. That took 40 seconds
 
So we have:

00:00 Killing of Tippit
00:40 Benavides gets out of his car, checks Tippit and tries to get the radio to work at approximately
01:00 Benavides starts keying the mic and (according to Bill Brown) the actual recording has him doing that one and half to two minutes after which Bowley takes over the mic at (approximately)
02:30 Bowley makes his call and it lasts 46 seconds which means it ends at 03:16

If Callaway made his call two minutes later it would be at 05:16 after the shots.

Now for the really big assumption - let's assume Benevides is in Tippit's car two minutes after the shooting,
This means Callaway makes his call 5 minutes after the shooting.

Benavides was in Tippit's car approx 45 - 50 seconds after the shooting.

In this time Callaway has watched Oswald run down Patton and had some kind of brief interaction with him.
He then followed Oswald down Patton (according to Guinyard).
He then has some kind of interaction with B D Searcy.
He then runs back up Patton and over to the squad car.

The distance of one block (from 10th street to Jefferson) takes 2,5 minutes to walk. Running it takes less than a minute. Even if Callaway waiting until the killer turned the corner to Jefferson, the whole thing wouldn't have taken 5 minutes for Callaway to get to the scene. 3 minutes is a far more reasonable estimate.

He briefly examines Tippit.
The ambulance arrives and he helps load Tippit into it.
He then makes his call.

Neither here nor there without time specification. Bill Brown said earlier that Callaway arrived at the scene at 3 minutes after the shots and I agree with him. Which means that the time line looks like;

00:00 Killing of Tippit
00:40 Benavides gets out of his car, checks Tippit and tries to get the radio to work at approximately
01:00 Benavides starts keying the mic and (according to Bill Brown) the actual recording has him doing that one and half to two minutes after which Bowley takes over the mic at (approximately)
02:30 to 03:00 Bowley makes his call and it lasts 46 seconds which means it ends at 03:16 or 3:46

03:00 Callaway arrives at the scene

5 minutes seems perfectly reasonable.

Except it isn't. The distance he and the killer had to run down and up Patton from and to 10th streets simply do not allow for a 5 minute duration conclusion.


When he arrives at the squad car Bowley has finished his call, so he could've actually reached the scene about 3 minutes after the shooting.

So now you are using the fact that Callaway did not know a call had already been made as "evidence" that it must have taken him longer than 3 minutes to get there? Really?


It mustn't have escaped his attention that there were no police at the scene which probably prompted him into making the call as the ambulance was leaving.

Speculation.

examine the DPD tapes and ignore the time calls

You can not examine the DPD tapes and ignore the time calls, but still use them to create a time line which simply doesn't fit.

Rather than trying to defend a pre-determined conclusion, perhaps you should try to evaluate all the available evidence.

I'm glad you pretty much agree with my estimations.
I have Callaway making his call about 5 minutes after the shooting and you have 5 minutes 16 seconds. That's not bad.
I have Callaway arriving at the scene about 3 minutes after the shooting and so do you.
You do seem to get a bit confused though. I posted:

When he arrives at the squad car Bowley has finished his call, so he could've actually reached the scene about 3 minutes after the shooting.

So I'm saying Callaway could've reached the scene about 3 minutes after the shooting, to which you responded:

"So now you are using the fact that Callaway did not know a call had already been made as "evidence" that it must have taken him longer than 3 minutes to get there? Really?"

You seem to think I was saying it took Callaway "longer than 3 minutes" to reach the scene but that's not what I said at all.
We are in agreement about how long it might have taken Callaway to reach the scene - 3 minutes.

Again, you seem a bit confused when I implied that 5 minutes seemed a perfectly reasonable time between the shooting and Callaway making his call when you post:

"Except it isn't. The distance he and the killer had to run down and up Patton from and to 10th streets simply do not allow for a 5 minute duration conclusion."

Nobody is saying it took him 5 minutes to run up and down Patton to 10th Street. We're in agreement that it probably took around 3 minutes.

The problem you seem to be having is that I've demonstrated, using the DPD tapes, that the ambulance arrives before Callaway makes his call. So after arriving at the scene (3 minutes), Callaway spends a couple of minutes examining Tippit's body and helping to load him into the ambulance.
I know my estimations are simplistic but I'm more concerned with the order of events and no matter how much you pretend it doesn't, the DPD tapes do contain the order of events and approximate times between these events.

[Martin Weidmann]

I already explained this; so did several other members.  Scroll back about thirty pages for a look.

What don't you understand about "I don't need your explanation. I need you to show me where in his testimony McWatters said it."

Run, Bill... run

[Bill Brown]

What don't you understand about "I don't need your explanation. I need you to show me where in his testimony McWatters said it."

Run, Bill... run

I'm not running from anything.  What don't you understand about I have already explained this; so have several other members.  Scroll back about thirty pages for a look.

[Dan O'meara]

Two things, if someone else hasn't already pointed this out:

1.) Callaway said that he tried to use the radio because he didn't know whether the shooting had been reported. However, the ambulance's presence would have been definitive proof that the shooting had indeed been reported, and that there was no reason for Callaway to break in on channel one.

2.) Callaway made clear that the transmission was the first action he took once he got to the scene. If he'd helped load Tippit into the ambulance first, then he wouldn't have said that the radio was the first thing he went for.

There isn't enough information in the abortive 602 transmissions during this time to determine exactly what 602 was trying to say. Any interpretation is going to be guesswork.

You need to go back a few posts to see my examination of the DPD tapes and how they demonstrate the ambulance arriving at the murder scene before Callaway makes his call.
Callaway might have been struck by the fact there were no police at the scene which may have prompted him to make the call

As far as I've been able to find, "In service" tends to mean two things: that someone just fired up their radio, or that someone just tuned into the channel from another frequency. That is, it seems to be related to the status of the radio rather than the status of the unit itself. 

Also, the ambulance stayed at Methodist once they dropped Tippit off. Once Tippit's body had been released to the county, the same crew loaded his body up again and drove it to Parkland for the autopsy.

Could it mean something else because they'd been using the radio constantly and were on the same channel.

[Dan O'meara]

So much desperation to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Why not critique the evidence being provided rather than some meaningless comment?

It is interesting to note that around 1:22 PM 602 makes the call "602 in service" which, I assume, means they have dropped Tippit off at the Methodist Hospital. This would indeed give an approximate time of 3 minutes for the journey to have been made between the murder scene and the Methodist Hospital. It would also indicate the DPD time calls were about two minutes off (if the 1:24 PM time is independent from the DPD time calls)

How in the world is it possible to have an honest conversation with guys like you when you keep on changing your mind.

So, now the DPD time calls are off by about two minutes? How does that work out with the times for the calls by Bowley and Callaway. Did they also happen two minutes earlier?

Just a few posts earlier I stated that there was something off about the time calls on the DPD tapes and you agreed!
I've not changed my mind about it, it's more like you've got a really bad memory

And what about DPD officer Davenport who, in two separate day one documents states that Tippit was declared DOA at 1:15 at the hospital? He was actually there and witnessed it. Are you calling him "mistaken" or simply a liar?

Are you calling Markham a liar?
Are you saying she lied about catching the 1;15 PM bus to work. Her regular bus? Is that what you're saying?
What exactly are you saying?