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Author Topic: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer  (Read 358108 times)

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2128 on: May 12, 2021, 06:24:26 AM »
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Absolutely.

Please refer to quoted part by Weidmann.

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You show me

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2128 on: May 12, 2021, 06:24:26 AM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2129 on: May 12, 2021, 06:58:33 AM »
No potty training on the forum.

BTW, your quote was incomplete.

Get a grip.

'No potty training on the forum'
No sh*tting your pants on the forum: Be a man and stop passing the buck to others.

BTW, my quote addresses the fact that Callaway helped put Tippit into the ambulance.
Yet you joke about Callaway helping to get Tippit to hospital.

WTF is wrong with you people...
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 07:41:33 AM by Bill Chapman »

Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2130 on: May 12, 2021, 08:16:45 AM »
You are aware that Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance BEFORE making his call on the patrol car radio.  Right?  There's your "coffee break".

And you want to debate this stuff live?  Really?

Now you are getting beyond ridiculous. Even Callaway disagrees!

Mr. CALLAWAY. I saw a squad car, and by that time there was four or five people that had gathered, a couple of cars had stopped. Then I saw--I went on up to the squad car and saw the police officer lying in the street. I see he had been shot in the head. So the first thing I did, I ran over to the squad car. I didn't know whether anybody reported it or not. So I got on the police radio and called them, and told them a man had been shot, told them the location, I thought the officer was dead. They said we know about it, stay off the air, so I went back.
By this time an ambulance was coming. The officer was laying on his left side, his pistol was underneath him. I kind of rolled him over and took his gun out from under him. The people wonder whether he ever got his pistol out of his holster. He did.
Mr. BALL. The pistol was out of the holster?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir; out of the holster, and it was unsnapped. It was on his right side. He was laying with the gun under him.
Mr. BALL. What did you do?
Mr. CALLAWAY. I picked the gun up and laid it on the hood of the squad car, and then someone put it in the front seat of the squad car. Then after I helped load Officer Tippit in the ambulance, I got the gun out of the car and told this cabdriver, I said, "You saw the guy didn't you?" He said, yes.

And you want to debate this stuff live?  Really?

No I want to debate what actually happened, not what you make up in a vain attempt to save your ass.

Debating you is actually very easy. It's actually so easy that I can even tell you in advance how I can bring you down with very little effort at all. Your entire narrative is based on the dubious assumption that the DPD recordings and time stamps are 100% correct. That's all you've really got. So, all I need to do is demonstrate conclusively, by a multitude of discrepancies, that the time line provided by the DPD recording not only is not correct but simply can not be correct. The fact alone that you have recently been all over the place about the time Benavides needed to work the mic in the patrol car, and the fact that you can't even say with any kind of certainty how much time Callaway needed to get to the scene after hearing the shots and call the DPD operator is going to destroy you. It's a simple as that. But it needs to be a live, face to face, because you have shown here, over and over again, that you will change your story whenever you think it's needed. In a live debate I will not let you do that. Your biggest weakness is your misguided confidence in your own alibity to think up enough BS to get out of the mess you've already created.   

You really are pissed off with yourself for making such a mess of your own narrative, aren't you?
Understandable, I would be pissed off too, but I wouldn't start making up my own little fairytales.

Now, how about that "coffee break". Got another explanation?

Wow.

All of that yada yada yada and you still don't know what you're talking about.

By the time Callaway testified in 1964, he was slightly off in the order of events, regarding loading the body into the ambulance and reporting the shooting to the police dispatcher.

All you really have to do is study the police tapes.

602 is the Kinsley/Butler ambulance.  As they pulled away from the scene with Tippit's body, they made an attempt to get hold of the police dispatcher to notify the dispatcher that they were en route to Methodist Hospital.

Murray Jackson (the dispatcher) didn't hear their attempt because at the same time, Callaway (after helping load the body into the ambulance) then went over to the patrol car radio, grabbed the mic and reported: "Hello, Hello, Hello.  This police officer's just shot.  I think he's dead."

Callaway was told by the dispatcher that  the police had the information and to remain off the air.

When Callaway (during his testimony) said "By this time, an ambulance was coming", he was correct.  Another ambulance (605) had been dispatched to the scene but the first ambulance (602) had already left for Methodist with the body.

I wouldn't really expect you to know any of this because (besides the sad reality that you're only interested in scoring points) it requires some work and maybe more importantly, an understanding of the big picture after having read EVERYTHING (as opposed to just Callaway's testimony).  But, you haven't read EVERYTHING, only what you feel works for you at the moment.

Get a clue.


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes2.htm

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Dallas%20Police%20Department/Dallas%20Police%20Department%20Records/Volume%2004/Item%2001.pdf
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 08:19:14 AM by Bill Brown »

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2130 on: May 12, 2021, 08:16:45 AM »


Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2131 on: May 12, 2021, 08:21:56 AM »
You are aware that Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance BEFORE making his call on the patrol car radio.  Right?  There's your "coffee break".

And you want to debate this stuff live?  Really?

Hate to admit I completely missed this one!

Easily the most insane claim coming from Bill Brown so far.

So, Callaway thinks the ambulance crew just happened to cruise by looking for bodies to pick up...ROFL

Tweedle Dee and Tweedle...

Anyway, be glad you "missed this one", otherwise you'd be the Dee instead of the... well, you get it (maybe?).

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2132 on: May 12, 2021, 04:55:21 PM »
Wow.

All of that yada yada yada and you still don't know what you're talking about.

By the time Callaway testified in 1964, he was slightly off in the order of events, regarding loading the body into the ambulance and reporting the shooting to the police dispatcher.

All you really have to do is study the police tapes.

602 is the Kinsley/Butler ambulance.  As they pulled away from the scene with Tippit's body, they made an attempt to get hold of the police dispatcher to notify the dispatcher that they were en route to Methodist Hospital.

Murray Jackson (the dispatcher) didn't hear their attempt because at the same time, Callaway (after helping load the body into the ambulance) then went over to the patrol car radio, grabbed the mic and reported: "Hello, Hello, Hello.  This police officer's just shot.  I think he's dead."

Callaway was told by the dispatcher that  the police had the information and to remain off the air.

When Callaway (during his testimony) said "By this time, an ambulance was coming", he was correct.  Another ambulance (605) had been dispatched to the scene but the first ambulance (602) had already left for Methodist with the body.

I wouldn't really expect you to know any of this because (besides the sad reality that you're only interested in scoring points) it requires some work and maybe more importantly, an understanding of the big picture after having read EVERYTHING (as opposed to just Callaway's testimony).  But, you haven't read EVERYTHING, only what you feel works for you at the moment.

Get a clue.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes2.htm

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Dallas%20Police%20Department/Dallas%20Police%20Department%20Records/Volume%2004/Item%2001.pdf

I wouldn't really expect you to know any of this because (besides the sad reality that you're only interested in scoring points) it requires some work and maybe more importantly, an understanding of the big picture after having read EVERYTHING (as opposed to just Callaway's testimony).  But, you haven't read EVERYTHING, only what you feel works for you at the moment.


The implication being that the mighty Bill Brown has read EVERYTHING? Really? What an ego!  :D
Are all these BS "you don't know the facts" personal attacks intended to somehow make in insecure? Or are they merely power boosts to your own ego? Either way, it's hilarious!

602 is the Kinsley/Butler ambulance.  As they pulled away from the scene with Tippit's body, they made an attempt to get hold of the police dispatcher to notify the dispatcher that they were en route to Methodist Hospital.

Actually, they made two attempts to get through to the dispatcher. The first time they were blocked out by 85 (R.W. Walker) and the second time by Callaway. On neither of these occassions did they manage to say a word to the dispatcher, so you haven't got a clue why they called him. The police tapes which I am supposed to study do not show that these two calls were made "as they pulled away from the scene with Tippit's body".

When Callaway (during his testimony) said "By this time, an ambulance was coming", he was correct.  Another ambulance (605) had been dispatched to the scene but the first ambulance (602) had already left for Methodist with the body.

There are several ambulances on the police recordings. There's 607 and 603 as well, but there is no indication that any of them, other than 602 was dispatched to the Tippit scene. In fact, 605 does make two calls; one "605 code 5" just prior to a dispatcher time call of 1:19 and one with code 6 ("arrived") just before a time stamp of 1:25 by the dispatcher. How can that ambulance be heard in Callaway's radio call if it doesn't arrive until 6 minutes after his call? Also, there is no report of 605 saying something like "we've arrived but another ambulance has already taken the body". Go figure!

By the time Callaway testified in 1964, he was slightly off in the order of events, regarding loading the body into the ambulance and reporting the shooting to the police dispatcher.

It's utterly amazing that you now add Callaway to the list of people that were wrong or mistaken in order to salvage your story. Not very convincing, but let's see what Callaway told the WC about the sequence of events;

Mr. CALLAWAY:  "I saw a squad car, and by that time there was four or five people that had gathered, a couple of cars had stopped. Then I saw--I went on up to the squad car and saw the police officer lying in the street. I see he had been shot in the head. So the first thing I did, I ran over to the squad car. I didn't know whether anybody reported it or not. So I got on the police radio and called them, and told them a man had been shot, told them the location, I thought the officer was dead. They said we know about it, stay off the air, so I went back. By this time an ambulance was coming."

Amazingly you posted this exact same quote 5 days ago

Mr. CALLAWAY:  "I saw a squad car, and by that time there was four or five people that had gathered, a couple of cars had stopped. Then I saw--I went on up to the squad car and saw the police officer lying in the street. I see he had been shot in the head. So the first thing I did, I ran over to the squad car. I didn't know whether anybody reported it or not. So I got on the police radio and called them, and told them a man had been shot, told them the location, I thought the officer was dead. They said we know about it, stay off the air, so I went back. By this time an ambulance was coming."

without saying a word about Callaway being wrong about the sequence of events. Why did you do that? You wouldn't want to spread misinformation, would you?

The reality is that there is not only not a shred of evidence that Callaway helped to load Tippit in the ambulance prior to making his call, it also simply doesn't make sense. Why would he call the DPD dispatcher, when the presence of the ambulance tells him that the authorities already know? Hell, why would he even say "By this time an ambulance was coming" when the ambulance for Tippit had already been and left. What significance would such a remark have?

But if you insist that Callaway was mistaken about this, how can we then assume that he wasn't mistaken about other things as well? Or are you just being very selective in what you need Callaway to be wrong about?

It's kinda funny to see how you talk youself into more time line trouble every time you say something silly;

To keep this post as short as I can, I am going to highlight parts from two of your previous posts. If the readers want to see the whole post they can click on the link.

Remember when you posted;


At 1:19, the ambulance speeds off to Methodist Hospital with Tippit's body.

Callaway gets on the patrol car radio to report the shooting at 1:19 (ambulance sirens can be heard in the background).

And when you posted this;

From Dale Myers:

The time reported to the FBI by Dr. Liquori (With Malice [WM], 2013 [edition], p.557) - 1:24 pm - is probably the accurate one based on the recorded timing of Bowley's call, the recorded departure of the ambulance from 10th and Patton, and the known drive time from 10th and Patton to Methodist Hospital.


So, if you still agree with Myers that Dr Liquori declared Tippit DOA at 1:24 (rather than 1:15) and you now claim that the ambulance left the scene before Callaway's call at 1:19, are we then seriously to believe that it took the ambulance, with sirens, 5 minutes to drive a distance that would not have taken more than two minutes to drive?

Really? Get a clue.

Bye Tweedle dum
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 12:42:27 AM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2132 on: May 12, 2021, 04:55:21 PM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2133 on: May 12, 2021, 05:24:18 PM »
Still no answers from Bill Brown to my questions:

Where in his testimony "McWatters testified that Oswald got on the bus".

And where on the internet can I find the proof that the Nash couple actually saw the time stamped slip for the ambulance call at the Funeral home?


According to the police tapes, the first ambulance arrived at 1:18.  It was dispatched from the Dudley-Hughes Funeral Home, two blocks away.  George and Patricia Nash saw the time slip notifying of the dispatch and noted that it was time-stamped 1:18.


And no reply to my question how long Benavides was keying the mic of the patrol car. Brown has said one minute, 1,5 minute and two minutes in the past. He claims he knows because he listened to the actual police tapes at Dale Myers house, so why is he so hesitant to to tell us what the actual duration is?

And what about Bowley? According to police radio transcripts he made his call to the dispatcher at 1:17 and the call took 46 seconds (I timed it). Bowley arrived on the scene when Benavides was already at the patrol car keying the mic. When he arrived Bowley looked at his watch, which said 1:10 PM. Yet, in his recent interview, Brown said that Bowley's watch "was probably slow by five minutes or something like that", which implies that he actually arrived at the scene at around 1:15 and not at 1:10. But how can that be, when he has Benavides starting to key the mic of the patrol car at 1:16? To be fair, in the interview Brown said Benavides started keying the mic at "like 1:15", which means he, once again isn't very consistent.


Domingo Benavides begins to key the mic of the patrol car radio at 1:16.  This keying of the mic would go on for about a minute and a half.


Are we really supposed to believe that Bowley arrived a minute or so before or at the time Benavides (respectively at 1:15 or 1:16) started keying the mic and that he did nothing about it for a minute or a minute and a half, before taking the mic from Benavides? Brown could easily clear up this confusion by telling us once and for all when, in his opinion, Bowley actually arrived at the scene, but for some unclear reason he doesn't want to do that either....

And there is another anomaly in the time line that was highlighted by Brown's interview. From around 39:10 Bill Brown starts to explain that three people (Mary Wright, Barbara Davis and OJ Lewis) phoned the police inmediately after the shooting. He then basically says that dispatcher Murray Jackson was unaware of the shooting until Bowley called it in on the radio, because at that time Jackson had not yet received any of the three phoned in messages. He then concludes (at 40:48) that, because the written notes about three phone messages had not yet been received, Bowley's radio call could only have happened at "a minute or two after the shooting".

So here's the problem. If Benavides waited around 40 seconds after the shooting (until the killer was out of sight) and then was keying the mic for more than one minute (in the interview (at 40:35) Brown claims you can hear the keying the mic sound for 1,5 to two minutes), how could only "a minute or two" pass by between the shooting and Bowley's radio call?

It's crickets on all these issues and one can only wonder why....

And there is one more point that needs to be clarified or explained;

A few months ago Bill Brown said this;

But, the problem for you is that you are using Bowles' words to suggest that it is possible that the clocks were off by as much as six or seven minutes, while Bowles tells you they may be off by two minutes maximum at any given time.

I seem to recall that he recently said it again, but that post was probably one of those deleted by Duncan.

Anyway, in his statement to the HSCA, J.C. Bowles, the man in charge of the DPD dispatchers, explained how the clocks were not synchronized, often indicated the incorrect time, and that it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock.

Quote
A master clock on the telephone room wall was connected to the City Hall system. This clock reported "official" time. Within the dispatcher's office there were numerous other time giving and time recording devices, both in the telephone room and in the radio room. Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time. However, their purpose was to stamp the time, day and date on incoming calls. While they were reliable at this, they were not synchronized as stated in the Committee report. Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock. Accordingly, at "exactly" 10:10, various clocks could be stamping from 10:08 to 10:12, for example. When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done.

In addition Bowles also explained how it could happen that a dispatcher could call out an incorrect time due to a delay caused by radio traffic

Quote
A given operator at a given time might broadcast "time" a little early in one event then a little late the next. Accordingly, a call initiated at, say, 10:10 might be stamped at 10:13 by the dispatcher, only to have intervening radio traffic delay his broadcast.

And finally Bowles cleary said;

Quote
There is no way to connect "police time" with "real time."

So, the obvious but never explained or answered question is; why would anybody, who himself (incorrectly) argues that Bowles' words mean that the times on the DPD recordings "may be off by two minutes maximum at any given time", still want to rely on times derived from that same system, in the full knowledge that is does not provide "real time" ?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 11:42:20 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2134 on: May 12, 2021, 11:10:19 PM »
From the Dallas Police tapes;

Shortly after Bowley's call on Tippit's radio the Dispatcher puts out this call:

"Attention. Signal 19 [shooting], police officer, 510 E. Jefferson." (Even though Bowley gives 404 Tenth Street as the address of the shooting)

Ambulance 602 responds - "Code 5" [En Route]

Maybe one minute later 602 states - "Code 6" [Arrived] - Meaning the ambulance has reached the East Jefferson address.

Shortly after this 602 asks - "What was that address on Jefferson?" - presumably because there is no sign of anything wrong.
To which the Dispatcher responds - "501 East Tenth."

Shortly after this 602 states - "Code 6" [Arrived] - Meaning they have arrived at the scene of the Tippit shooting at 501 East Tenth Street

Shortly after this 602 tries to get the attention of the Dispatcher but the call is interrupted by Callaway's call.

It would appear the Dallas Police tapes support Bill's assertion that the ambulance has arrived to pick up Tippit before Callaway makes his call.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 11:11:47 PM by Dan O'meara »

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2134 on: May 12, 2021, 11:10:19 PM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2135 on: May 12, 2021, 11:57:05 PM »
From the Dallas Police tapes;

Shortly after Bowley's call on Tippit's radio the Dispatcher puts out this call:

"Attention. Signal 19 [shooting], police officer, 510 E. Jefferson." (Even though Bowley gives 404 Tenth Street as the address of the shooting)

Ambulance 602 responds - "Code 5" [En Route]

Maybe one minute later 602 states - "Code 6" [Arrived] - Meaning the ambulance has reached the East Jefferson address.

Shortly after this 602 asks - "What was that address on Jefferson?" - presumably because there is no sign of anything wrong.
To which the Dispatcher responds - "501 East Tenth."

Shortly after this 602 states - "Code 6" [Arrived] - Meaning they have arrived at the scene of the Tippit shooting at 501 East Tenth Street

Shortly after this 602 tries to get the attention of the Dispatcher but the call is interrupted by Callaway's call.

It would appear the Dallas Police tapes support Bill's assertion that the ambulance has arrived to pick up Tippit before Callaway makes his call.

It's nice of you to explain what the meaning of all those radio codes are, but please don't expect me to take you word for it. Even less so as you let yourself be guided by a radio transcript that simply can not be correct.

There is no way to connect "police time" with "real time." - J.C. Bowles (the man in charge of the DPD dispatchers).

But let's assume for a second that you are correct about the codes. Brown not only claimed that Callaway helped load Tippit into the ambulance (that would be 602) before making his call, but that another ambulance (which would 605) arrived during or just after (I'm paraphrazing) the radio call.

Now, here's the thing. Just after 602 asked for the correct address, 605 called in with code 5 (which according to you means "en route", right"?" The dispatcher replied with a time stamp of 1:19. Only seconds later Callaway made his radio call. But the radio transcript shows that 605 did not call in with code 6 ("arrived") until just before a time stamp of 1:25 by the dispatcher.

So, how can an ambulance that does not arrive until roughly 1:25 be heard in Callaway's radio call at 1:19?

And then there is this minor problem. The drive time from 10th street to Methodist Hospital is no more than 2 to 3 minutes depending on traffic. Brown basically claims that Tippit was declared DOA at the hospital at around 1:24. So, if the ambulance left 10th street just prior to a 1:19 time call, are we to believe that, with sirens, they needed 5 minutes to cover a distance that normally takes about 2 to 3 minutes to drive?

And one final question. According to Bill Brown in his interview Dale Myers has worked backward from the time of Callaway's call at 1:19 (which actually, according to the transcripts was only seconds after a 1:19 time stamp) and Myers has concluded that Bowley started making his radio call at about 1:17:41. Anybody who has a stopwatch can determine that Bowley's call lasted 46 second, which means it must have ended at 1:18:27. We know that Bowley and Callaway both helped to load Tippit into the ambulance and we know that Callaway testified that he did not know if anybody had already called the dispatcher. So we have a window of about 30 seconds in which Bowley and Callaway loaded Tippit in the ambulance and have the ambulance leave before Callaway makes his call. So, are we to believe that Callaway did not see Bowley making his call? According to Bill Brown he [Callaway] arrived at the scene 3, perhaps 4 or maybe even 5 minutes after the shots. Enough time to make a coffee and watch the procedings, don't you think?

Now why do I images of the state of Denmark in my head?

Btw, in my previous two posts I point out all sorts of discrepancies in Brown's story and time line and this is the only one you want to focus on or deal with?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 12:31:26 AM by Martin Weidmann »