Lee Oswald The Cop Killer

[Bill Brown]

Where exactly did I say that? Show me...

As far as I know, all I did was put two of your statements together;

At the patrol car at probably 3 minutes after the shots + he just did not get on the police radio to report it immediately upon arriving at the scene = he arrived at the scene less than 3 minutes after the shots (it's the only logical conclusion!)

So why ask me an irrelevant question like this ;

Why ask me if I don't understand the difference, when I never said it in the first place?

Of course there is, but I never expected you to honestly admit it.

If you have Callaway making his radio call at 1:19, which by your own words is three minutes after the shots were fired, it means that Tippit was shot at 1:16.

But if Tippit was shot at 1:16, and you have Benavides waiting in his car for 40 seconds for the killer to leave and than one minute trying to get the radio to work, and to have Bowles making a 46 seconds radio call at 1:17, it simply doesn't add up. Even a teenager can do this math. It's easy!

To deny there is a descrepancy is just plain dishonest.

As I said, there is no discrepancy in what I've stated.  All anyone has to do is go back through my comments and have a look.

What are you going on about?

[Martin Weidmann]

As I said, there is no discrepancy in what I've stated.  All anyone has to do is go back through my comments and have a look.

What are you going on about?

What part of this don't you understand?

OK, pay attention!

Now that we have established, that according to you, Callaway was at the patrol car reporting the shooting (let's say about) 3 minutes after the shots, at 1:19, then you have the shooting taking place at 1:16 PM. Or does your clock work differently?

The DPD radio tapes have Bowley making his 46 seconds call at 1:17 PM, which (in this scenario) means about one minute after the shots, right?

But before that, and these are all things you claimed yourself, you have Benavides waiting roughly 40 seconds in his car until the killer had disappeared on Patton and needing one minute to try and operate the radio. And - you did not say this - but let's not forget he first got out of his car and went to see if he could help Tippit, which by a very conservative estimate would have taken 20 seconds (is that fair?).

So, the DPD recordings have Bowley making his call at 1:17 (taking 46 seconds) with a 15 seconds pause preceding it.
And they have Callaway's call between the verbal time stamps of 1:19 and 1:21, but with clearly more traffic after his short call than before it.

The DPD recordings also reveal that the ambulance was already on it's way prior to Callaway's call, and Officer Croy testified that when he arrived at the scene (from Zang/Colorado - where he heard Bowley's call - which is no more than a 2 minute drive) the ambulance was already there and two civilians (Callaway and Bowley) were helping putting Tippit in the ambulance. The distance from the Funeral Home to 10th street is a little more than one block, and would have taken the ambulance no more than 30 to 40 seconds, with sirens on. Based on this information it is reasonable to conclude that when Croy arrived (two minutes after Bowley's call) Callaway had already made his call!

Combined this information links the events after Bowley's 1:17 radio conclusively together as they must have happened within a roughly two minutes long sequence of events.

Are you still following this?

But, as I have already shown to you, Benavides needed at around two minutes to do the things you said he did, before Bowley took over the radio. In other words, if you do the math, your scenario has Callaway making his call three minutes after the shots, which means at 1:16, but Benavides shows that the shots must have been fired at least a minute earlier, at 1:15, because otherwise he could not have done what you claimed he did.

So, there is a discrepancy of a minute in the two scenarios. Either the verbal time stamps of the DPD radio calls do not correspond with the actual sequence of events or Callaway did not arrive and get on the radio three minutes after the shots but four.

Having said all this, you also might want to consider this little beauty from what J.C. Bowles told the HSCA;

Next, consideration should be given to the methods of individual radio operators. A given operator at a given time might broadcast "time" a little early in one event then a little late the next. Accordingly, a call initiated at, say, 10:10 might be stamped at 10:13 by the dispatcher, only to have intervening radio traffic delay his broadcast. He might go ahead and announce the dispatch time as 10:13 and the digital clock then showed 10:14. Time intervals of less than one minute were never used. Likewise, the time stated in periodic station identification time checks was not always exact. During quiet intervals, station time checks were usually on time. However, radio operators did not interrupt radio traffic in progress just to give a station check. Accordingly, an operator might give, say, the 10:30 check as 10:30 when it was actually 10:29 or perhaps 10:31 or later.

Which one is it? Which is the one you were wrong about? Either Callaway being at the patrol car to make his call at 1:19 or the time stamps on the DPD recordings being wrong.

Both can't be right. Your choice

[Bill Brown]

What part of this don't you understand?

OK, pay attention!

Now that we have established, that according to you, Callaway was at the patrol car reporting the shooting (let's say about) 3 minutes after the shots, at 1:19, then you have the shooting taking place at 1:16 PM. Or does your clock work differently?

The DPD radio tapes have Bowley making his 46 seconds call at 1:17 PM, which (in this scenario) means about one minute after the shots, right?

But before that, and these are all things you claimed yourself, you have Benavides waiting roughly 40 seconds in his car until the killer had disappeared on Patton and needing one minute to try and operate the radio. And - you did not say this - but let's not forget he first got out of his car and went to see if he could help Tippit, which by a very conservative estimate would have taken 20 seconds (is that fair?).

So, the DPD recordings have Bowley making his call at 1:17 (taking 46 seconds) with a 15 seconds pause preceding it.
And they have Callaway's call between the verbal time stamps of 1:19 and 1:21, but with clearly more traffic after his short call than before it.

The DPD recordings also reveal that the ambulance was already on it's way prior to Callaway's call, and Officer Croy testified that when he arrived at the scene (from Zang/Colorado - where he heard Bowley's call - which is no more than a 2 minute drive) the ambulance was already there and two civilians (Callaway and Bowley) were helping putting Tippit in the ambulance. The distance from the Funeral Home to 10th street is a little more than one block, and would have taken the ambulance no more than 30 to 40 seconds, with sirens on. Based on this information it is reasonable to conclude that when Croy arrived (two minutes after Bowley's call) Callaway had already made his call!

Combined this information links the events after Bowley's 1:17 radio conclusively together as they must have happened within a roughly two minutes long sequence of events.

Are you still following this?

But, as I have already shown to you, Benavides needed at around two minutes to do the things you said he did, before Bowley took over the radio. In other words, if you do the math, your scenario has Callaway making his call three minutes after the shots, which means at 1:16, but Benavides shows that the shots must have been fired at least a minute earlier, at 1:15, because otherwise he could not have done what you claimed he did.

So, there is a discrepancy of a minute in the two scenarios. Either the verbal time stamps of the DPD radio calls do not correspond with the actual sequence of events or Callaway did not arrive and get on the radio three minutes after the shots but four.

Having said all this, you also might want to consider this little beauty from what J.C. Bowles told the HSCA;

Next, consideration should be given to the methods of individual radio operators. A given operator at a given time might broadcast "time" a little early in one event then a little late the next. Accordingly, a call initiated at, say, 10:10 might be stamped at 10:13 by the dispatcher, only to have intervening radio traffic delay his broadcast. He might go ahead and announce the dispatch time as 10:13 and the digital clock then showed 10:14. Time intervals of less than one minute were never used. Likewise, the time stated in periodic station identification time checks was not always exact. During quiet intervals, station time checks were usually on time. However, radio operators did not interrupt radio traffic in progress just to give a station check. Accordingly, an operator might give, say, the 10:30 check as 10:30 when it was actually 10:29 or perhaps 10:31 or later.

Which one is it? Which is the one you were wrong about? Either Callaway being at the patrol car to make his call at 1:19 or the time stamps on the DPD recordings being wrong.

Both can't be right. Your choice

I have said time and time again that the time stamps on the police tapes could be off by as much as forty-five seconds to a minute.  I have also said (even in the very recent Youtube interview) that Callaway was at the patrol car three to four minutes after hearinfg the shots.  I have also said (even in the very recent Youtube interview) that Callaway's call was at 1:19/1:20.

So what are you going on about again?

[Martin Weidmann]

I have said time and time again that the time stamps on the police tapes could be off by as much as forty-five seconds to a minute.  I have also said (even in the very recent Youtube interview) that Callaway was at the patrol car three to four minutes after hearinfg the shots.  I have also said (even in the very recent Youtube interview) that Callaway's call was at 1:19/1:20.

So what are you going on about again?

Your unwillingness to discuss the actual points I have raised is duly noted.

I have said time and time again that the time stamps on the police tapes could be off by as much as forty-five seconds to a minute.

Not sure where you actually said that, but it does not compute with what the man in charge of the DPD dispatchers told the HSCA.

A given operator at a given time might broadcast "time" a little early in one event then a little late the next. Accordingly, a call initiated at, say, 10:10 might be stamped at 10:13 by the dispatcher, only to have intervening radio traffic delay his broadcast. - J.C. Bowles

But at least we have now established that the DPD time calls can not be relied upon to give the accurate time. 

Which computes perfectly with what Bowles said;

There is no way to connect "police time" with "real time." - J.C. Bowles

I have also said (even in the very recent Youtube interview) that Callaway was at the patrol car three to four minutes after hearinfg the shots. I have also said (even in the very recent Youtube interview) that Callaway's call was at 1:19/1:20.

Backpeddling?

Anyway, it makes very little difference if Callaway got there 4 minutes after shots (he only needed to run one block, for crying out loud!) and made his call at 1:20. That would still place the shooting at 1:16 PM, which still does not match with the time lines for Benavides and Bowley.

It also does not match with the testimony of Croy, who arrived some 2 minutes after hearing Bowley's 1:17 call and saw Callaway and Bowley put Tippit into the ambulance. Nor does it match with the ambulance itself, which left Jefferson shortly after Bowley's call and got there in about 40 seconds. Didn't you say you can hear the sirens in Callaway's radio call? So, there is no way that Callaway made his call at 1:20. It just doesn't fit.

But, just for fun, let's throw another spanner in your narrative. A while ago I said that you claimed that Benavides was trying to get the mic to work for two minutes and you claimed you had said it was only one minute. I accepted that as my error and let it go, which is why I am quoting you now for the one minute period. However, I just listened to your interview again and in it, at around 42:30 you said; If you listen to the actual police tapes you can hear the mic being keyed, eventhough he never did get through, cause he didn't know how to do it right. It begins at 1:15 and last for about a minute and a half to two minutes".

So, you've got Benavides starting to work the mic at 1:15 (which means the shooting was at least a minute earlier) and it took him 1,5 to two minutes. That might fit in as far as the duration goes with Bowley's account, but if true you now must have Callaway arriving at the scene at 1:14 + 3 minutes, which is 1:17 or at the lastest 1:18. Or, alternatively, you need to argue that Callaway needed 5 minutes to run one block, which the FBI determined would take 2,5 minutes to walk.

In other words, you're all over the place.

But keep going. It's good fun trying to see you wiggle yourself out of this one. 

What's it going to be? Are you going to ask what I am going on about again (exposing a total lack of understanding of basic logic) or are you going to present your case in a similar way I have?

[Dan O'meara]

Just trying to work out when the shooting of Tippit took place and was struck by this from the WC testimony of Benevides:

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I don't know if I opened the car door back further than what it was or not, but anyway, I went in and pulled the radio and I mashed the button and told them that an officer had been shot, and I didn't get an answer, so I said it again, and this guy asked me whereabouts all of a sudden, and I said, on 10th Street. I couldn't remember where it was at at the time. So I looked up and I seen this number and I said 410 East 10th Street.

It sounds to me like he only tried the radio a couple of times then hears someone asking for his whereabouts. So I looked at the DPD tapes. Just after the 1:16 mark it has the word "static", This word does not appear anywhere else in the tapes. Just a few seconds before this the dispatcher asks "Location?" a couple of times.
Going out on a bit of a limb but I think Benevides hears "Location?" as he's messing about with the radio and the static is him trying to tell the dispatcher his location but he can't operate the radio properly.
Very shortly after this is Bowley's call.

Might be something, might not be.

[Steve M. Galbraith]

Just trying to work out when the shooting of Tippit took place and was struck by this from the WC testimony of Benevides:

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I don't know if I opened the car door back further than what it was or not, but anyway, I went in and pulled the radio and I mashed the button and told them that an officer had been shot, and I didn't get an answer, so I said it again, and this guy asked me whereabouts all of a sudden, and I said, on 10th Street. I couldn't remember where it was at at the time. So I looked up and I seen this number and I said 410 East 10th Street.

It sounds to me like he only tried the radio a couple of times then hears someone asking for his whereabouts. So I looked at the DPD tapes. Just after the 1:16 mark it has the word "static", This word does not appear anywhere else in the tapes. Just a few seconds before this the dispatcher asks "Location?" a couple of times.
Going out on a bit of a limb but I think Benevides hears "Location?" as he's messing about with the radio and the static is him trying to tell the dispatcher his location but he can't operate the radio properly.
Very shortly after this is Bowley's call.

Might be something, might not be.

Dan: Not sure if this has been posted but James Bowles, the "Communications Superviser" for the DPD, has a long piece linked below that goes over in some details the time stamps.

See the section titled "Reference to the Times and Recordings". Some of it - more than some - is over my head but it might help.

Link: https://jfk-online.com/bowles1.html

[Dan O'meara]

Dan: Not sure if this has been posted but James Bowles, the "Communications Superviser" for the DPD, has a long piece linked below that goes over in some details the time stamps.

See the section titled "Reference to the Times and Recordings". Some of it - more than some - is over my head but it might help.

Link: https://jfk-online.com/bowles1.html

Thanks Steve.

It has been mentioned a few times already, the bottom line being that there is no way to connect "police time " with "real time".
I was working under the premise that a number of independent witnesses note that the assassination occurred at 12:30 PM ("real time") and that this was reflected in the DPD tapes ("police time")
I appreciate that time-keeping in general in the '60's wasn't like it is today (wind-up watches etc.) but this corroboration of different sources with "police time" indicates, to me at least, that the dispatchers time-stamps were fairly accurate (at least for the time around the assassination).
It may have veered off slightly by the time of the Tippit shooting but I don't know how that can be corroborated.
The best I can do at the moment is try to fit all the various statements together as accurately as possible and see how that pans out. If Markham's regular bus is indeed at 1:15 PM, I can't see her being stood at the corner of 10th and Patton any later than 1:12 PM but this creates major problems with the time-stamps.

[Bill Brown]

Thanks Steve.

It has been mentioned a few times already, the bottom line being that there is no way to connect "police time " with "real time".
I was working under the premise that a number of independent witnesses note that the assassination occurred at 12:30 PM ("real time") and that this was reflected in the DPD tapes ("police time")
I appreciate that time-keeping in general in the '60's wasn't like it is today (wind-up watches etc.) but this corroboration of different sources with "police time" indicates, to me at least, that the dispatchers time-stamps were fairly accurate (at least for the time around the assassination).
It may have veered off slightly by the time of the Tippit shooting but I don't know how that can be corroborated.
The best I can do at the moment is try to fit all the various statements together as accurately as possible and see how that pans out. If Markham's regular bus is indeed at 1:15 PM, I can't see her being stood at the corner of 10th and Patton any later than 1:12 PM but this creates major problems with the time-stamps.

But, there was no 1:15 bus.  There was a 1:12 and 1:22 bus.

However, 1:15 is the perfect time to get to the bus stop if one were regularly catching the 1:22 bus.  I believe Markham, who said she was rushing to leave her apartment, was a little behind normal time for her that day and was on pace to get to the bus stop (Patton and Jefferson) around 1:17, 1:18 (still in time to catch the 1:22 bus but later than she normally arrived at the bus stop: 1:15).