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Author Topic: Andrew Iler Cannot Clean Up Education Forum  (Read 990 times)

Online Brian Doyle

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Andrew Iler Cannot Clean Up Education Forum
« Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 09:02:56 PM »


It is spelled out in DiEugenio and Douglass that the Diems were risking losing the Buddhists...The rift over that would risk dividing the population against the South Vietnamese government...

Diem wasn't killed by Kennedy...He was killed by Lodge and the CIA as a regime change operation designed to place compliant leadership in Viet Nam...

Online Benjamin Cole

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Re: Andrew Iler Cannot Clean Up Education Forum
« Reply #29 on: Today at 01:26:14 AM »
BD-

JFK recognized his complicity in the Diem assassinations.

Lodge, in a recorded conversation, warned JFK the Big Minh-led coup was likely to be lethal.

CIA'er Lucien Conein, acting on direct orders from Ambassador Lodge, who was hand-selected by JFK, gave Big Minh large amounts of cash to perp the lethal coup.

The CIA station in Saigon backed the Diems, as did the previous Ambassador Nolting. It was DC dilettantes who wanted to appease NYT op-ed pages who wanted the Diems dead.

Conein asked for air transport to get the Diems out of SV. He was refused. Told no planes were available--despite the US having the large air base at Danang.

In a twist of fate, Madame Nhu was in the US at the very time the Kennedy Administration was having the Diems assassinated. She angrily hinted at reprisals. She was very tight with Lansdale. She was a remarkable woman, by all accounts.

The Diem assassinations destabilized SV.

I happen to be a JFK fan. But history is history.








Online Mark A. Oblazney

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Re: Andrew Iler Cannot Clean Up Education Forum
« Reply #30 on: Today at 07:25:07 AM »
Hu Nhu ?

Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Andrew Iler Cannot Clean Up Education Forum
« Reply #31 on: Today at 03:54:06 PM »
BD-

JFK recognized his complicity in the Diem assassinations.

Lodge, in a recorded conversation, warned JFK the Big Minh-led coup was likely to be lethal.

CIA'er Lucien Conein, acting on direct orders from Ambassador Lodge, who was hand-selected by JFK, gave Big Minh large amounts of cash to perp the lethal coup.

The CIA station in Saigon backed the Diems, as did the previous Ambassador Nolting. It was DC dilettantes who wanted to appease NYT op-ed pages who wanted the Diems dead.

Conein asked for air transport to get the Diems out of SV. He was refused. Told no planes were available--despite the US having the large air base at Danang.

In a twist of fate, Madame Nhu was in the US at the very time the Kennedy Administration was having the Diems assassinated. She angrily hinted at reprisals. She was very tight with Lansdale. She was a remarkable woman, by all accounts.

The Diem assassinations destabilized SV.

I happen to be a JFK fan. But history is history.
JFK actually approved two coup attempts. The first, in August, was shutdown by the plotters who feared that it would fail. This one involved the infamous Cable 243 screwup where JFK and the Cabinet were out of Washington and a aide to Bundy (Michael Forrestal) cabled Lodge (with JFK's approval) that the Administration would not oppose the attempt. When everyone returned to Washington they all pointed fingers at each other over what happened, who was responsible for the decision. This was when JFK said, "My God, my government's coming apart!"

JFK was convinced, with reasonably good evidence (this wasn't just Lodge), that South Vietnam simply couldn't survive as long as Diem and his brother remained in power. And he thought it was vital to US security that South Vietnam not fall. It's why he opposed a unconditional withdrawal. He still believed that with a new government and with US assistance that Saigon could survive. A problem was that Diem was increasingly relying on Nhu and he, Nhu, was simply impossible to reason with.

The obvious question is: If JFK had decided to simply leave, unconditionally withdraw, then why go through all of these coup machinations? Not once but twice? It makes no sense. He could have used the chaos and blamed Diem and simply left. Instead he tried to replace Diem (twice) with a more stable government. Which got him deeper into the mess. Nobody simply leaving would approve these coups.

Look, these conspiracy people have created a fantasy world, an alternate universe where the innocent JFK just wanted peace but was forced to take these actions - in Cuba, in Vietnam, and support containment - by evil militarists around him. When he eventually refused they conspired to kill him. It's nonsense from beginning to end. But it's the only way their conspiracy works. If all of these groups got together to kill JFK and then cover it up for decades (even today!) then the only reason must have been because he was such a threat to them. And what was that threat? He was going to leave Vietnam and "end" the Cold War.

RFK said it wasn't true, he wasn't going to simply leave. McNamara said he wasn't. Rusk said he wasn't. Bundy said he wasn't. The documents say he wasn't. Hell, even JFK said he wasn't. And still they believe the opposite.
« Last Edit: Today at 10:11:58 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

Online Brian Doyle

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Andrew Iler Cannot Clean Up Education Forum
« Reply #32 on: Today at 04:04:17 PM »


These are false versions designed to misrepresent Kennedy's true position on Viet Nam...

JFK's attempts to defuse the Cold War would have eased the pressures assumed in your versions...

CIA was acting to get around Kennedy in Viet Nam...They were undermining his authority in league with Lodge and the US Military...

Johnson got elected and got them their war...

Kennedy had foreseen and tried to prevent this hopeless boondoggle...

Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Andrew Iler Cannot Clean Up Education Forum
« Reply #33 on: Today at 06:04:25 PM »
Diem was overthrown and killed on November 1, three weeks before JFK's assassination. The White House's thinking at that time was that South Vietnam was still worth defending, that the new government could rally the people and that with US help the communists could be prevented from taking the country over and disrupting all of southeast Asia (as JFK believed would happen). There was no reason at that time to simply walk away and allow Hanoi to win. Success was seen as still possible.

From the Pentagon Papers: "The Diem coup was one of those critical events in the history of U.S. policy that could have altered our commitment. The choices were there: (1) continue to plod along in a limited fashion with Diem -- despite his and Nhu's growing unpopularity; (2) encourage or tacitly support the overthrow of Diem, taking the risk that the GVN might crumble and/or accommodate to the VC; and (3) grasp the opportunity -- with the obvious risks --of the political instability in South Vietnam to disengage. The first option was rejected because of the belief that we could not win with Diem-Nhu. The third was never seriously considered a policy alternative because of the assumption that an independent non-communist SVN was too important a strategic interest to abandon — and because the situation was not sufficiently drastic to call into question so basic an assumption. The second course was chosen mainly for the reasons the first was rejected --Vietnam was thought too important; we wanted to win and the rebellious generals seemed to offer that prospect. Pentagon Papers, IV. B.5

Pentagon Papers: https://www.archives.gov/research/pentagon-papers

« Last Edit: Today at 07:11:24 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »