Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: How Do LNers Deal With Givens?  (Read 5907 times)

Offline Zeon Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1386
Re: How Do LNers Deal With Givens?
« Reply #98 on: September 23, 2026, 11:20:09 PM »
Trying to sync up Adams', Stiles', and Garner's trip down the stair with when Oswald was on the stairs is an exercise in folly. Nobody was running a stopwatch on the day of the assassination, so everyone is guessing about when they were on the stairs. They could have been on the stairs before or more likely s little after Oswald. Since they were all going in the same direction, there is no reason to believe they would have crossed paths.

You were non-specific about what Dougherty's observations regarding Oswald you were referring to. If you are referring to the fact he didn't notice Oswald brought a package into the TSBD, this doesn't mean he was confused or cognitively disabled. It means he was human. People just don't take note of mundane details that wouldn't have seemed the least bit important at the time. Our brains do not have DVDs imbedded in them. We only remember fractions of the things we see, and when asked about details later on, our brains try to fill in the blanks, usually somewhat inaccurately.

Ok , Dougherty places himself on the 5th floor and briefly on the 6th floor at the time that Oswald was on the 5th floor and shouted for the elevator at 11:45.  Dougherty never left the 5th floor except to  briefly go up to the 6th floor then returning 5th floor again.  He is on 5th floor from 11:45 till 12:30 basically. He supposedly then took the east freight elevator down to the 1st floor to meet Eddie Piper at 12:31 approx.

So during this 11:45-12:30 period of time that Dougherty was on 5th floor the sequence of other persons moving about occurred:

11:45 All other employees on 6th and 5th floor , except Oswald and Dougherty , leave and take the 2 freight elevators down to the 1st floor.
 
11:45 Oswald on the 5th floor or 6th floor , shouts to send an elevator back up to 5th floor (or 6th floor?)

11:45-11:54 Oswald is not seen by anyone including Jack Dougherty who is still on the 5th floor.

11:55 Givens ( presumably ) takes an elevator to the 6 th floor and sees Oswald on 6th floor. There is no conversation between them, even though Oswald probably saw Givens get off the elevator to go find his cigarettes. Oswald did not request that Givens send an elevator back up, nor did Oswald ride back down with Givens even though Oswald had shouted to send an elevator back up at 11:45.
 
12:00 Oswald is seen on the 1st floor by Eddie Piper. Jack Dougherty is still on the 5th floor presumably but has no verification of being seen by anyone there from 12:00 until 12:37 approx when Baker/Truly come down from the roof using an elevator to go down to the 4th floor where they met Sawyers team.


12:05-12:23 Bonnie Ray Williams was on the 6th floor. He used one of the elevators get there. Dougherty was still on the 5th floor at this time according to Dougherty. BRW did not see Dougherty or Oswald during this period of time nor did Dougherty see or hear BRW elevator passing by the 5th floor.

12:01-12:14 Oswald is not seen by anyone ( or they did not remember seeing him)

12:00-12:10 Mrs Reid , Carolyn Arnold, Virgie Racheley and other female employees are eating lunch in the 2nd floor lunchroom. None recall seeing Oswald then.

12:10-12:15 Mrs Reid and the female employees exit the lunchroom , trek 100 ft of hallway to the front staircase, go down to front lobby and go stand outside of the front entrance on the steps or further out on the sidewalk nearer to elm st. None see Oswald.


12:15  Digital clock time of TSBD roof clock: Arnold Rowland sees a light completed man that he described as “Latin” at the 6th floor SW window holding a rifle which Rowland could see had a scope on it. He saw that detail from 255 ft away approx. At the same time , Rowland noticed a black man “ hanging out” the other SE corner 6th floor window, and estimated the lower half of window was all the way up. ( ie: higher than the 15.5 inch height  it was at time captured in Hughes film.  Presuming the “ Latin” man was Oswald , then Oswald was on the 6th floor at SW window at 12:15.

If Oswald is the 6th fllor shooter  then the following sequence begins:


12:01-12:14 Oswald was not seen  This would be the period of time perhaps he could have assembled  the rifle and then be seen by Rowland Arnold at 12:15. Where Oswald would least likely be seen assembling the rifle is in a storage office on the 7th floor.

12:15:30 sec, Oswald retreated from SW window , placed his rifle back in the paper bag( otherwise why would the bag ever wind up being at the SE window?) , hid the bag probably between boxes  along the east aisle of the 6th floor as he made his way to the rear staircase.

12:15:30-12:16:45 Oswald descends staircase at normal pace reaching 2nd floor lunchroom and sitting down.

12:17 Carolyn Arnold has returned to the 2nd floor lunchroom to get some water ,
having left her friend Virgie Racheley at 12:16 ( possibly when they both were going down the front staircase to the 1st floor lobby ) Arnold sees Oswald sitting in a booth (or chair?)

12:18 Carolyn Arnold has left the lunchroom and probably made it down to the front lobby and then went outside to stand out if from of the TSBD.

This is a complicated sequence to work out with BRW on the 6th floor from
12:05 to 12:23, Jarman amd Norman taking elevator from 1st floor to 5th floor at 12:23 and Jack Dougherty on 5th floor and briefly 6th floor between 12:45 and 12:30.


Somehow nobody saw or heard Oswald going up or down  on the stairs , or going up to 6th floor after he was  seen by Piper. No one saw or heard Oswald moving 3 boxes just about 1 minute after BRW left the 6th floor at 12:23 , taking an elevator from 6th to 5th floor and joining Norman and Jarman who had arrived to their windows by 12:23.

And the anomaly is even more difficult to resolve with Jack Dougherty on the 5th and 6th floor who saw nor heard anyone between 11:45 and 12:31 and no one saw Dougherty from 12:00-12:37.


I can see why the WC did not wish to get into this thicket of uncertainty , but I’m going to keep  trying to figure it out  cause it’s an interesting problem.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2026, 11:26:52 PM by Zeon Mason »

Online Dan O'meara

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4033
Re: How Do LNers Deal With Givens?
« Reply #99 on: September 24, 2026, 07:57:50 AM »
Ok , Dougherty places himself on the 5th floor and briefly on the 6th floor at the time that Oswald was on the 5th floor and shouted for the elevator at 11:45.  Dougherty never left the 5th floor except to  briefly go up to the 6th floor then returning 5th floor again.  He is on 5th floor from 11:45 till 12:30 basically. He supposedly then took the east freight elevator down to the 1st floor to meet Eddie Piper at 12:31 approx.

So during this 11:45-12:30 period of time that Dougherty was on 5th floor the sequence of other persons moving about occurred:

11:45 All other employees on 6th and 5th floor , except Oswald and Dougherty , leave and take the 2 freight elevators down to the 1st floor.
 
11:45 Oswald on the 5th floor or 6th floor , shouts to send an elevator back up to 5th floor (or 6th floor?)

11:45-11:54 Oswald is not seen by anyone including Jack Dougherty who is still on the 5th floor.

11:55 Givens ( presumably ) takes an elevator to the 6 th floor and sees Oswald on 6th floor. There is no conversation between them, even though Oswald probably saw Givens get off the elevator to go find his cigarettes. Oswald did not request that Givens send an elevator back up, nor did Oswald ride back down with Givens even though Oswald had shouted to send an elevator back up at 11:45.
 
12:00 Oswald is seen on the 1st floor by Eddie Piper. Jack Dougherty is still on the 5th floor presumably but has no verification of being seen by anyone there from 12:00 until 12:37 approx when Baker/Truly come down from the roof using an elevator to go down to the 4th floor where they met Sawyers team.


12:05-12:23 Bonnie Ray Williams was on the 6th floor. He used one of the elevators get there. Dougherty was still on the 5th floor at this time according to Dougherty. BRW did not see Dougherty or Oswald during this period of time nor did Dougherty see or hear BRW elevator passing by the 5th floor.

12:01-12:14 Oswald is not seen by anyone ( or they did not remember seeing him)

12:00-12:10 Mrs Reid , Carolyn Arnold, Virgie Racheley and other female employees are eating lunch in the 2nd floor lunchroom. None recall seeing Oswald then.

12:10-12:15 Mrs Reid and the female employees exit the lunchroom , trek 100 ft of hallway to the front staircase, go down to front lobby and go stand outside of the front entrance on the steps or further out on the sidewalk nearer to elm st. None see Oswald.


12:15  Digital clock time of TSBD roof clock: Arnold Rowland sees a light completed man that he described as “Latin” at the 6th floor SW window holding a rifle which Rowland could see had a scope on it. He saw that detail from 255 ft away approx. At the same time , Rowland noticed a black man “ hanging out” the other SE corner 6th floor window, and estimated the lower half of window was all the way up. ( ie: higher than the 15.5 inch height  it was at time captured in Hughes film.  Presuming the “ Latin” man was Oswald , then Oswald was on the 6th floor at SW window at 12:15.

If Oswald is the 6th fllor shooter  then the following sequence begins:


12:01-12:14 Oswald was not seen  This would be the period of time perhaps he could have assembled  the rifle and then be seen by Rowland Arnold at 12:15. Where Oswald would least likely be seen assembling the rifle is in a storage office on the 7th floor.

12:15:30 sec, Oswald retreated from SW window , placed his rifle back in the paper bag( otherwise why would the bag ever wind up being at the SE window?) , hid the bag probably between boxes  along the east aisle of the 6th floor as he made his way to the rear staircase.

12:15:30-12:16:45 Oswald descends staircase at normal pace reaching 2nd floor lunchroom and sitting down.

12:17 Carolyn Arnold has returned to the 2nd floor lunchroom to get some water ,
having left her friend Virgie Racheley at 12:16 ( possibly when they both were going down the front staircase to the 1st floor lobby ) Arnold sees Oswald sitting in a booth (or chair?)

12:18 Carolyn Arnold has left the lunchroom and probably made it down to the front lobby and then went outside to stand out if from of the TSBD.

This is a complicated sequence to work out with BRW on the 6th floor from
12:05 to 12:23, Jarman amd Norman taking elevator from 1st floor to 5th floor at 12:23 and Jack Dougherty on 5th floor and briefly 6th floor between 12:45 and 12:30.


Somehow nobody saw or heard Oswald going up or down  on the stairs , or going up to 6th floor after he was  seen by Piper. No one saw or heard Oswald moving 3 boxes just about 1 minute after BRW left the 6th floor at 12:23 , taking an elevator from 6th to 5th floor and joining Norman and Jarman who had arrived to their windows by 12:23.

And the anomaly is even more difficult to resolve with Jack Dougherty on the 5th and 6th floor who saw nor heard anyone between 11:45 and 12:31 and no one saw Dougherty from 12:00-12:37.


I can see why the WC did not wish to get into this thicket of uncertainty , but I’m going to keep  trying to figure it out  cause it’s an interesting problem.

Jack Dougherty went down for lunch:

Mr. BALL. Wait a minute, did you go to lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I went back downstairs to eat lunch-yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What time?
Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, it was 12 o’clock.

This is confirmed by Danny Arce:

Mr. BALL. What about Jack Dougherty?
Mr. ARCE. He was on all floors; I couldn’t tell you where he was.
Mr. BALL. Was he outside?
Mr. ARCE. No, he was eating lunch; me and Jack Dougherty, same time.
Mr. BALL.  Dougherty ate his lunch?
Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.

According to his WC testimony, Dougherty had his lunch, he wasn't there a long time, then went back to work (even though it was the lunch break and the President of the USA was passing in front of the building). He went straight up to the 6th floor and was working on the 6th floor completely unnoticed by Bonnie Ray Williams.
He then went down to the work on the 5th floor completely unnoticed by Williams, Norman and Jarman.
He was supposedly stood by the stairs at the time Oswald supposedly descended them completely unnoticed by Dougherty.
Oswald descended the stairs completely unnoticed by Garner on the 4th floor.
A lot of things went unnoticed on the upper floors of the TSBD building


PS: What makes you think Williams left the 6th floor at 12:23PM?
Jarman believes he and Norman weren't up on the 5th until after this time while Williams was still on the 6th:

Representative FORD. This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN. That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
Representative FORD. You got off the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 07:53:47 AM by Dan O'meara »

Online John Corbett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2648
Re: How Do LNers Deal With Givens?
« Reply #100 on: September 24, 2026, 12:51:01 PM »
Ok , Dougherty places himself on the 5th floor and briefly on the 6th floor at the time that Oswald was on the 5th floor and shouted for the elevator at 11:45.  Dougherty never left the 5th floor except to  briefly go up to the 6th floor then returning 5th floor again.  He is on 5th floor from 11:45 till 12:30 basically. He supposedly then took the east freight elevator down to the 1st floor to meet Eddie Piper at 12:31 approx.

So during this 11:45-12:30 period of time that Dougherty was on 5th floor the sequence of other persons moving about occurred:

11:45 All other employees on 6th and 5th floor , except Oswald and Dougherty , leave and take the 2 freight elevators down to the 1st floor.
 
11:45 Oswald on the 5th floor or 6th floor , shouts to send an elevator back up to 5th floor (or 6th floor?)

11:45-11:54 Oswald is not seen by anyone including Jack Dougherty who is still on the 5th floor.

11:55 Givens ( presumably ) takes an elevator to the 6 th floor and sees Oswald on 6th floor. There is no conversation between them, even though Oswald probably saw Givens get off the elevator to go find his cigarettes. Oswald did not request that Givens send an elevator back up, nor did Oswald ride back down with Givens even though Oswald had shouted to send an elevator back up at 11:45.
 
12:00 Oswald is seen on the 1st floor by Eddie Piper. Jack Dougherty is still on the 5th floor presumably but has no verification of being seen by anyone there from 12:00 until 12:37 approx when Baker/Truly come down from the roof using an elevator to go down to the 4th floor where they met Sawyers team.


12:05-12:23 Bonnie Ray Williams was on the 6th floor. He used one of the elevators get there. Dougherty was still on the 5th floor at this time according to Dougherty. BRW did not see Dougherty or Oswald during this period of time nor did Dougherty see or hear BRW elevator passing by the 5th floor.

12:01-12:14 Oswald is not seen by anyone ( or they did not remember seeing him)

12:00-12:10 Mrs Reid , Carolyn Arnold, Virgie Racheley and other female employees are eating lunch in the 2nd floor lunchroom. None recall seeing Oswald then.

12:10-12:15 Mrs Reid and the female employees exit the lunchroom , trek 100 ft of hallway to the front staircase, go down to front lobby and go stand outside of the front entrance on the steps or further out on the sidewalk nearer to elm st. None see Oswald.


12:15  Digital clock time of TSBD roof clock: Arnold Rowland sees a light completed man that he described as “Latin” at the 6th floor SW window holding a rifle which Rowland could see had a scope on it. He saw that detail from 255 ft away approx. At the same time , Rowland noticed a black man “ hanging out” the other SE corner 6th floor window, and estimated the lower half of window was all the way up. ( ie: higher than the 15.5 inch height  it was at time captured in Hughes film.  Presuming the “ Latin” man was Oswald , then Oswald was on the 6th floor at SW window at 12:15.

If Oswald is the 6th fllor shooter  then the following sequence begins:


12:01-12:14 Oswald was not seen  This would be the period of time perhaps he could have assembled  the rifle and then be seen by Rowland Arnold at 12:15. Where Oswald would least likely be seen assembling the rifle is in a storage office on the 7th floor.

12:15:30 sec, Oswald retreated from SW window , placed his rifle back in the paper bag( otherwise why would the bag ever wind up being at the SE window?) , hid the bag probably between boxes  along the east aisle of the 6th floor as he made his way to the rear staircase.

12:15:30-12:16:45 Oswald descends staircase at normal pace reaching 2nd floor lunchroom and sitting down.

12:17 Carolyn Arnold has returned to the 2nd floor lunchroom to get some water ,
having left her friend Virgie Racheley at 12:16 ( possibly when they both were going down the front staircase to the 1st floor lobby ) Arnold sees Oswald sitting in a booth (or chair?)

12:18 Carolyn Arnold has left the lunchroom and probably made it down to the front lobby and then went outside to stand out if from of the TSBD.

This is a complicated sequence to work out with BRW on the 6th floor from
12:05 to 12:23, Jarman amd Norman taking elevator from 1st floor to 5th floor at 12:23 and Jack Dougherty on 5th floor and briefly 6th floor between 12:45 and 12:30.


Somehow nobody saw or heard Oswald going up or down  on the stairs , or going up to 6th floor after he was  seen by Piper. No one saw or heard Oswald moving 3 boxes just about 1 minute after BRW left the 6th floor at 12:23 , taking an elevator from 6th to 5th floor and joining Norman and Jarman who had arrived to their windows by 12:23.

And the anomaly is even more difficult to resolve with Jack Dougherty on the 5th and 6th floor who saw nor heard anyone between 11:45 and 12:31 and no one saw Dougherty from 12:00-12:37.


I can see why the WC did not wish to get into this thicket of uncertainty , but I’m going to keep  trying to figure it out  cause it’s an interesting problem.

This whole timeline collapses due to its reliance on Carolyn Arnold to establish Oswald's presence in the lunchroom. Her earliest statement to the FBI stated she left here office between 12:00 and 12:15. She said she MIGHT have seen Oswald at that time between the front door and the double doors but wasn't sure it was Oswald. Maybe she saw Lovelady. She said nothing about seeing Oswald in the lunchroom. That embellishment was given many years later.

http://jfkpage.com/Oswald/FBI-Carolyn%20Arnold.png

Online Michael T. Griffith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2016
    • JFK Assassination Website
Re: How Do LNers Deal With Givens?
« Reply #101 on: Today at 03:19:13 PM »
Even the uber-cautious Pat Speer points out some of the gaping problems with Givens' WC testimony:

We now arrive at the 4-8-64 testimony of Charles Givens (6H345-356). There are four problems with Givens' testimony that would almost certainly have come to light should Oswald have been provided a defense, or even if Ball (and his junior partner Belin) had found his testimony at odds with the Oswald-did-it conclusion.

The first problem bubbles up near the beginning of his testimony.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what time you got to work that day?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; I got to work around about a quarter to eight.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got to work?

Mr. GIVENS. I went in a little lunchroom that we have downstairs.

Mr. BELIN. Is that what you call the domino room?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You carry your lunch with you?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You put your lunch there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you wear a jacket to work that day?

Mr. GIVENS. I wore a raincoat, I believe. It was misting that morning.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hang up your coat in that room, too?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Now, this is clear, right? Belin asked Givens about a jacket, and Givens corrected Belin and told him he'd wore a raincoat, and that he'd hung it up in the domino room.

Belin then asked Givens about his seeing Oswald on the morning of the 22nd. Givens said he saw Oswald on the first floor around 8:30. Belin then asked Givens about the next time he saw Oswald.

Here is his response: “Well, it was about a quarter till 12, we were on our way downstairs, and we passed him, and he (Oswald) was standing at the gate on the fifth floor. I came downstairs, and I discovered I left my cigarettes in my jacket pocket upstairs, and I took the elevator back upstairs to get my jacket with my cigarettes in it."

Well, wait a second. This bit about the jacket is not only in conflict with Givens' earlier testimony he hung up his raincoat (not jacket) in the domino room, it's in conflict with a statement Givens provided the FBI on 3-18-64, in which he asserted that he was a block away from Dealey Plaza when the President was shot, but that "After the President was shot I returned to the Texas School Book Depository Building, and was told by a Dallas policeman that I could not enter the building. About an hour later, I went to the Dallas Police Department and was questioned by the police for about forty-five minutes. Then I returned to the Book Depository Building about 5 o'clock that same afternoon to pick up my hat and coat. I left the building a few minutes after I picked up my hat and coat." (22H649)

Okay. Let's get this straight. Givens said he went to the sixth floor to get cigarettes from his jacket. No jacket was found on the sixth floor. It follows then that Givens took his jacket with him when he went to lunch. Now, he also claimed he returned to the building to get his coat. Well, the only way Givens' statements and testimony can make any sense, then, is if we give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he wore both a coat and jacket to work on 11-22-63.

Now, should we give him that benefit? Absolutely not. Givens was a warehouse worker. He did not work in a jacket. So, why should we believe he wore a raincoat to work over a jacket, removed this raincoat in the domino room, and then removed the jacket up on the sixth floor? I repeat, he was a warehouse worker. He would know, upon entrance into the building, that he wasn't gonna need a jacket while working up on the sixth floor. It follows, then, that he would have left his jacket (if he was even wearing a jacket) with his coat in the domino room. I mean, think about it. The order pullers and floor crew with access to the sixth floor were not allowed to return to that floor after the shooting. Some of them--Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray Williams, and Billy Lovelady come to mind--were captured in photographs during or just after the shooting. And yet none of them were wearing jackets when photographed. And yet none of their jackets were found on the sixth floor.

Givens' claim he left a jacket on the sixth floor is simply not credible.

Belin's failure to clarify Givens' testimony regarding his raincoat and/or jacket is also strange, if not suspicious...

Suspicious Omission #6
                                                                                                   
4-8-64. Warren Commission attorney David Belin fails to follow-up and clarify the record when Charles Givens testifies to leaving his coat in the domino room upon his arrival at work, but then going back up to the sixth floor to get his jacket after everyone else had left for lunch--a brand new addition to Givens' story that allowed Belin and the Commission to place Oswald in the proximity of the sniper's nest shortly before the shooting.

This brings us to the second problem with Givens' testimony.

Givens continued: "When I got back upstairs, he was on the sixth floor in that vicinity, coming from that way…Toward the window up front where the shots were fired from…he had his clipboard in his hand…He was coming towards the elevators…He said…'When you get downstairs, close the gate to the elevator.'" 

Now, this is the centerpiece of Givens' testimony. He changed his story from seeing and hearing Oswald yell out to close the gate when the floor crew was heading down to lunch to his seeing Oswald on the sixth floor (and hearing Oswald yell out to close the gate) after the floor crew had gone down to lunch and he (Givens) had returned to the sixth floor.

And Belin knew this. A 3-18-64 Ball/Belin memo outlined the topics to be explored in Givens' upcoming testimony. Under the subject heading "Elevator," Belin noted: "Oswald was on the fifth floor. Oswald called for them to stop. Oswald yelled at Givens to close the gates so that Oswald could have the elevator to return to the sixth floor." Well, heck. That's almost shocking. But a few weeks before Givens testified to Oswald's yelling out when he (Givens) came down alone, Ball and Belin were planning to spin that Oswald's yelling out when the floor crew came down meant he wanted to use the elevator to go back up to the sixth floor.

In any event, when Givens testified to returning to the sixth floor on his lunch hour, seeing Oswald on the sixth floor near the sniper's nest, and hearing Oswald yell out when he (Givens) descended to the first floor, Belin failed to remind Givens of his prior statements. Or even the testimony of his co-workers, Bonnie Ray Williams, Danny Arce, and Billy Lovelady, who claimed Oswald yelled out when Givens first headed down for lunch. (A New Perspective on the John F. Kennedy Assassination, chapter 17, online book, https://www.patspeer.com/jahs-chapter-17)
« Last Edit: Today at 03:20:17 PM by Michael T. Griffith »