The JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate
How Do LNers Deal With Givens?
John Corbett:
--- Quote from: Zeon Mason on September 20, 2026, 03:29:15 PM ---Good point Tim Thumb1: maybe there is some distinct specific difference with Oswald’s rifle that would prevent any trace of gunpowder from escaping the chamber even though it was exposed 3 times during the bolt operation ejection of shell and loading the next round?
What do you think about the CBS time trial shooters not having used Oswald’s rifle? Does that invalidate the fact that 3 shooters were actually able to fire 3 shots and get at least 2 hits in less than 6 seconds?
--- End quote ---
An FBI agent fired Oswald's rifle three times and tested negative with the basic paraffin test. That establishes that the rifle could be fired without leaving gunpowder residue on the shooter's cheek.
The CBS test was a silly one because it required the shooters to fire 3 shots in under six seconds, something Oswald wasn't required to do. Even with the compressed time span for the shooting, some of the shooters scored 2 hits in 3 shots. I believe one of them score 3 hits.
Three shots in 5.6 seconds is a ridiculous constraint because it is only one second over the minimum time required to fire three aimed shots. It would have given the shooters just a half second additional time to aim the rifle. I guess nobody at CBS News ever bothered to read the WC conclusion on the time span of the shooting. Uncle Walter was still repeating the myth of 3 shots in under 6 seconds in 1988. One would expect more accuracy from a cub reporter than Cronkite gave us over several decades of reporting on the JFKA.
Dan O'meara:
--- Quote from: Zeon Mason on September 20, 2026, 03:41:04 PM ---I was trying to offer to the LNs a possible rational alternative that explains Dougherty not seeing anything in Oswald’s hands when Oswald entered the back door of TSBD that morning to replace the standard LN “he just was not paying attention” argument. So I just letting you know I’m not attacking either you or John Corbett . I’m just trying to have a Socratic dialogue and that means questioning the status quo.
--- End quote ---
No worries Zeon, you are reacting to a post that wasn't in response to anything you said.
I was just revealing what a spoon fed nobody some of these Warren Commission sycophants can be.
They can't think for themselves. If the Warren Commission didn't say it then they don't know what to think.
The point of this thread is to demonstrate that the Warren Commission created a web of lies and deception regarding Oswald's movements prior to the assassination.
The Givens lie had a twofold effect - it placed Oswald on the 6th floor near the southeast corner and it had Oswald refusing to come down to the first floor.
In reality the Elevator Race incident (as told by four separate witnesses) had Oswald on the 5th floor calling for them to send the elevator back up so he could get down to the first floor. And we know he did return to the first floor because, just before noon, Eddie Piper was talking with him on the first floor.
The problem for the Warren Commission was Bonnie Ray Williams.
Zeon Mason:
--- Quote from: Dan O'meara on September 21, 2026, 05:20:33 PM ---No worries Zeon, you are reacting to a post that wasn't in response to anything you said.
I was just revealing what a spoon fed nobody some of these Warren Commission sycophants can be.
They can't think for themselves. If the Warren Commission didn't say it then they don't know what to think.
The point of this thread is to demonstrate that the Warren Commission created a web of lies and deception regarding Oswald's movements prior to the assassination.
The Givens lie had a twofold effect - it placed Oswald on the 6th floor near the southeast corner and it had Oswald refusing to come down to the first floor.
In reality the Elevator Race incident (as told by four separate witnesses) had Oswald on the 5th floor calling for them to send the elevator back up so he could get down to the first floor. And we know he did return to the first floor because, just before noon, Eddie Piper was talking with him on the first floor.
The problem for the Warren Commission was Bonnie Ray Williams.
--- End quote ---
It does seem inconsistent that Oswald would shout to send up an elevator and then when one arrives, Oswald elects not to ride down on it with Givens.
I can only speculate that if Oswald is the shooter that he had intended to lock down one ( or both?) elevators on the 6th floor from 11:45 till maybe 12:10 so he could go take a couple of trial runs down all 6 flights of stairs and floor landings checking for obstacles and making sure doors were wedged open.
However , there was no one who saw Oswald doing this practice run nor even saw him on 6th floor including Dougherty who was supposedly on the 5th floor during this time.
You add in Bonnie Ray Williams on the 6th floor from 12:05 till 12:23 and Carolyn Arnold sighting Oswald at 12:15 in the 2nd floor lunchroom while Arnold Rowland is sighting a black man at the SE window at 12:15 simultaneously with another lighter complected man holding a rifle at the SW window ….. and it’s getting awfully complicated to work out how Oswald goes uo and down the stairs so many times without being seen by anybody else
except Piper on the 1st floor at 12:00.
I tried working out a plausible solution but it requires that Oswald’s original plan was to shoot from the window at 12:15, that he transported the rifle multiple times in the bag ( yet only 2 prints on bag?) that he got spooked seeing BRW at the other SE window, that Oswald hid the rifle in bag again, went all the way down to 2nd floor lunchroom to be seen maybe at 12:17 by Carolyn Arnold , then a few minutes later , Oswald regained his nerve and went back up , took rifle in bag to NW corner , saw BRW still at the SE window. Then Oswald hid somewhere to hide until BRW finally left 6th floor at 12:23 using the elevator. Then Oswald has only about 2 minutes to arrange those 3 boxes , placing one on the window ledge at that particular Angle ( he had to get the box on the window ledge before film started) And he did all that without being heard by Harold Norman on the 5th floor room right beneath him. (Norman and Jarman were at their windows by 12:23) And Dougherty neither saw nor heard ANY of this activity. ???
John Corbett:
--- Quote from: Zeon Mason on September 21, 2026, 06:57:07 PM ---
I tried working out a plausible solution but it requires that Oswald’s original plan was to shoot from the window at 12:15, that he transported the rifle multiple times in the bag ( yet only 2 prints on bag?) that he got spooked seeing BRW at the other SE window, that Oswald hid the rifle in bag again, went all the way down to 2nd floor lunchroom to be seen maybe at 12:17 by Carolyn Arnold , then a few minutes later , Oswald regained his nerve and went back up , took rifle in bag to NW corner , saw BRW still at the SE window. Then Oswald hid somewhere to hide until BRW finally left 6th floor at 12:23 using the elevator. Then Oswald has only about 2 minutes to arrange those 3 boxes , placing one on the window ledge at that particular Angle ( he had to get the box on the window ledge before film started) And he did all that without being heard by Harold Norman on the 5th floor room right beneath him. (Norman and Jarman were at their windows by 12:23) And Dougherty neither saw nor heard ANY of this activity. ???
--- End quote ---
Why would you believe Arnold made a mental note of what time she saw Oswald? Nothing would have seemed less important at the time. She wasn't sure where or when she had seen Oswald. Why would she have been?
Martin Weidmann:
--- Quote from: John Corbett on September 21, 2026, 08:27:37 PM ---Why would you believe Arnold made a mental note of what time she saw Oswald? Nothing would have seemed less important at the time. She wasn't sure where or when she had seen Oswald. Why would she have been?
--- End quote ---
Which still doesn't rule out the possibility that she did in fact see Oswald.
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