Understanding the JFK Assassination Conspiracy Cover-Up

[Lance Payette]

So you think asking you to tell us what you think happened is frivolous? That says a lot.
Well, it's a start. So now tell us how the Mafia knew 6 weeks in advance of the assassination to place Oswald in the TSBD overlooking a motorcade route that had not yet even been planned.

CT beanie back on (whew, I'm getting dizzy): I noticed you said this same thing as having been some sort of epiphany for you in the video with Fred Litwin. In my Mafia scenario, the lads didn't have to plant Oswald in the TSBD or know anything in advance about the motorcade route. Why would this be a necessity?

[John Corbett]

CT beanie back on (whew, I'm getting dizzy): I noticed you said this same thing as having been some sort of epiphany for you in the video with Fred Litwin. In my Mafia scenario, the lads didn't have to plant Oswald in the TSBD or know anything in advance about the motorcade route. Why would this be a necessity?

If they intended to us Oswald as either the shooter or the patsy, they would need him in a place where he could do the deed. As it was, the route wasn't made public until Monday of that week. That would have meant they had four days to locate a suitable shooter/patsy. What evidence is there that anybody in the Mafia knew Oswald was working in the TSBD? Even if they knew, that is a very small amount of time to convince Oswald to be the shooter. If he was intended to be the patsy, how did they get him to make the preparations to retrieve his rifle from Irving, then make the trip on Thursday night to fetch the rifle, and smuggle it into the TSBD the next day. The same questions apply no matter who one hypothesizes was behind the assassination.

On, the other hand, it is perfectly plausible that Oswald upon learning the motorcade would be passing directly in front of his workplace would hatch a scheme to take out JFK for reasons known only to him. It was a crime of opportunity.

If you disagree  with my analysis, present a plausible explanation for how the Maffia, or anybody else could have hatched this plot using Oswald as either the shooter or the patsy.

[Lance Payette]

If they intended to us Oswald as either the shooter or the patsy, they would need him in a place where he could do the deed. As it was, the route wasn't made public until Monday of that week. That would have meant they had four days to locate a suitable shooter/patsy. What evidence is there that anybody in the Mafia knew Oswald was working in the TSBD? Even if they knew, that is a very small amount of time to convince Oswald to be the shooter. If he was intended to be the patsy, how did they get him to make the preparations to retrieve his rifle from Irving, then make the trip on Thursday night to fetch the rifle, and smuggle it into the TSBD the next day. The same questions apply no matter who one hypothesizes was behind the assassination.

On, the other hand, it is perfectly plausible that Oswald upon learning the motorcade would be passing directly in front of his workplace would hatch a scheme to take out JFK for reasons known only to him. It was a crime of opportunity.

If you disagree  with my analysis, present a plausible explanation for how the Maffia, or anybody else could have hatched this plot using Oswald as either the shooter or the patsy.

Now you're arguing something different from it being a definitive conspiracy-killer that the Mafia would've had to place Oswald in the TSBD and known the motorcade route in advance.

The bare fact of JFK's upcoming trip to Dallas was known before Oswald even went to Mexico City. His uncle's relationship with Marcello was longstanding. If he was part of a Mafia plot, either as a knowing participant (as John Orr believes) or the perfect patsy, it may have been pure happenstance that his perch in the TSBD turned out to be ideal a few days before the deed. Had it not been, perhaps he would have been placed elsewhere.

I don't have to articulate an entire Mafia scenario. I will await what John Orr and Larry Schnapf come up with, in terms of both evidence and theory. I did happen to watch a video interview today of John Orr by Matt Douthit, and Orr said it was an "entirely Mafia" JFKA but didn't expand on how he thought Oswald had been brought into the plot.

I can agree that the LN scenario is a more plausible explanation, at least unless Orr and Schnapf can convincingly show that the one-gunman scenario is ballistically impossible. You are the one who said the realization that the conspirators would have had to have placed Oswald in the TSBD and known the motorcade route long in advance was what ended your days as a CTer. I simply say that your realization is not correct. While being open to the Mafia theory, I don't think for a moment anyone placed Oswald in the TSBD or knew the route long in advance.

[John Corbett]

Now you're arguing something different from it being a definitive conspiracy-killer that the Mafia would've had to place Oswald in the TSBD and known the motorcade route in advance.

The bare fact of JFK's upcoming trip to Dallas was known before Oswald even went to Mexico City. His uncle's relationship with Marcello was longstanding. If he was part of a Mafia plot, either as a knowing participant (as John Orr believes) or the perfect patsy, it may have been pure happenstance that his perch in the TSBD turned out to be ideal a few days before the deed. Had it not been, perhaps he would have been placed elsewhere.

I don't have to articulate an entire Mafia scenario. I will await what John Orr and Larry Schnapf come up with, in terms of both evidence and theory. I did happen to watch a video interview today of John Orr by Matt Douthit, and Orr said it was an "entirely Mafia" JFKA but didn't expand on how he thought Oswald had been brought into the plot.

I can agree that the LN scenario is a more plausible explanation, at least unless Orr and Schnapf can convincingly show that the one-gunman scenario is ballistically impossible. You are the one who said the realization that the conspirators would have had to have placed Oswald in the TSBD and known the motorcade route long in advance was what ended your days as a CTer. I simply say that your realization is not correct. While being open to the Mafia theory, I don't think for a moment anyone placed Oswald in the TSBD or knew the route long in advance.

Knowing JFK was coming to Texas isn't specific enough knowledge to place Oswald in the TSBD. The only way that works using Oswald as either the shooter or the patsy is if you know he would have perch overlooking the motorcade route.

Three sites were under consideration for the luncheon. Had either of the other two been selected, the motorcade would have been routed down Main St. in a west-to-east direction, making a shot from the TSBD almost impossible. The decision to use the Trade Mart, which dictated an east-to-west route down Main St. was made by JBC. I've actually seen CTs over the years claim that JBC was complicit in the assassination, even though he would have known he would be placing both himself and his wife in harm's way. But nothing is too silly for some folks.

[Lance Payette]

Knowing JFK was coming to Texas isn't specific enough knowledge to place Oswald in the TSBD. The only way that works using Oswald as either the shooter or the patsy is if you know he would have perch overlooking the motorcade route.

Three sites were under consideration for the luncheon. Had either of the other two been selected, the motorcade would have been routed down Main St. in a west-to-east direction, making a shot from the TSBD almost impossible. The decision to use the Trade Mart, which dictated an east-to-west route down Main St. was made by JBC. I've actually seen CTs over the years claim that JBC was complicit in the assassination, even though he would have known he would be placing both himself and his wife in harm's way. But nothing is too silly for some folks.

You are (intentionally?) missing the point. No one has to place Oswald in the TSBD at all. No one has to know the motorcade route long in advance at all. They only have to know that JFK is coming to Dallas (or Miami, or Chicago) and that Oswald is someone amenable to an assassination plot, either as a participant or a perfect patsy if he can be convinced it's a pro-Castro plot. Orr has him as a reluctant but knowing participant because Marcello made him an offer he couldn't refuse. If the route had been different, Oswald presumably would have been shooting from a different location. There is indeed at least something resembling evidence that he scouted other possible locations in Dallas. As it turned out, the motorcade route was ideal for Oswald, especially if he was a patsy, and for a gunman in or on the Dal-Tex or County Records building. There simply is no compelling reason that conspirators had to have placed Oswald in the TSBD or known the motorcade route long in advance. I don't think Dan O'Meara's LBJ-Byrd-Cason-Shelley theory has Oswald being placed in the TSBD or the route being known in advance either.

[John Corbett]

You are (intentionally?) missing the point. No one has to place Oswald in the TSBD at all. No one has to know the motorcade route long in advance at all. They only have to know that JFK is coming to Dallas (or Miami, or Chicago) and that Oswald is someone amenable to an assassination plot, either as a participant or a perfect patsy if he can be convinced it's a pro-Castro plot. Orr has him as a reluctant but knowing participant because Marcello made him an offer he couldn't refuse. If the route had been different, Oswald presumably would have been shooting from a different location. There is indeed at least something resembling evidence that he scouted other possible locations in Dallas. As it turned out, the motorcade route was ideal for Oswald, especially if he was a patsy, and for a gunman in or on the Dal-Tex or County Records building. There simply is no compelling reason that conspirators had to have placed Oswald in the TSBD or known the motorcade route long in advance. I don't think Dan O'Meara's LBJ-Byrd-Cason-Shelley theory has Oswald being placed in the TSBD or the route being known in advance either.

How do you get Oswald into another position to kill JFK. If the motorcade went down Main St. west-to-east he would have faced an almost impossible cross shot from a block away and would be lucky to get off more than one shot as the limo passes the intersection of Main and Houston. The other possibility is the motorcade would have taken Commerce to Houston and then taken Houston to Main to begin the trek through downtown. That presents a whole different set of problems for a shooter from the TSBD.

How do you get him into another building with his rifle? He had no car and didn't know how to drive. If you have somebody take him to another location, that pretty much shoots down the narrative that he was acting alone.

I don't think Oswald would have attempted the assassination if the motorcade had not be routed down Elm St. It was a crime of opportunity. I also can't imagine conspirators using Oswald as a shooter or a patsy if the motorcade had not been routed down Elm St.

Your difficulty in coming up with a plausible scenario using Oswald as a shooter or patsy should tell you why this question was instrumental in me doubting any and all conspiracy theories. There would have to be a plausible explanation for how the conspirators could have known well in advance that TSBD employee Oswald would be useful to them as either the shooter or he patsy. If you are going to postulate him as the patsy, you would also need an explanation for why he was such a cooperative patsy.

[Lance Payette]

How do you get Oswald into another position to kill JFK. If the motorcade went down Main St. west-to-east he would have faced an almost impossible cross shot from a block away and would be lucky to get off more than one shot as the limo passes the intersection of Main and Houston. The other possibility is the motorcade would have taken Commerce to Houston and then taken Houston to Main to begin the trek through downtown. That presents a whole different set of problems for a shooter from the TSBD.

How do you get him into another building with his rifle? He had no car and didn't know how to drive. If you have somebody take him to another location, that pretty much shoots down the narrative that he was acting alone.

I don't think Oswald would have attempted the assassination if the motorcade had not be routed down Elm St. It was a crime of opportunity. I also can't imagine conspirators using Oswald as a shooter or a patsy if the motorcade had not been routed down Elm St.

Your difficulty in coming up with a plausible scenario using Oswald as a shooter or patsy should tell you why this question was instrumental in me doubting any and all conspiracy theories. There would have to be a plausible explanation for how the conspirators could have known well in advance that TSBD employee Oswald would be useful to them as either the shooter or he patsy. If you are going to postulate him as the patsy, you would also need an explanation for why he was such a cooperative patsy.

Oswald was a well-known commodity to the pro- and anti-Castro communities, especially in New Orleans – Marcello’s turf – long before the JFKA. His uncle Dutz Murret had underworld connections, which in New Orleans meant Marcello connections; the Oswald-Dutz relationship was not a distant one by any means, and Oswald knew of Dutz’s shady activities and discussed them with Marina. JFK’s trip to Dallas was known in September before Oswald visited Mexico City and reportedly made JFK-related threats. I have no idea precisely whose radar Oswald may have been on before or after his employment at the TSBD, but there are numerous possibilities for him coming to the attention of Marcello as either a possible JFKA participant or a patsy.

Also distinctly odd is Oswald’s inquiry about employment at the Allright Parking Garage just a week before the JFKA and his curious interest in the height of the building and its view of downtown Dallas. https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190240/m1/1/. I muse upon this oddity here: https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,4612.0.html.

It’s entirely possible, it seems to me, that Oswald had been recruited into a JFKA plot before the motorcade route was finalized and then – voila – the TSBD in which he happened to be employed turned out to be perfect for both a patsy and a pro in the Dal-Tex or County Records building when the route was finalized. I have a hard time with Orr’s theory of Oswald as a knowing participant because having him shoot from TSBD6 would have been fantastically, absurdly risky for the Mafia (i.e., if he had even the faintest inkling that this was a Mafia plot), but I can easily see him as a patsy in what he thought was a pro-Castro plot, with Marcello et al. having no reason to care if he was captured or killed.

My level of conviction is probably 80% that the LN narrative is true and 20% that a Mafia plot is true, but that 20% could go up substantially if Orr’s trajectory analysis delivers all that he and Schnapf seem to promise.