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Author Topic: CIA Wallets at Tenth and Patton  (Read 3951 times)

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: CIA Wallets at Tenth and Patton
« Reply #84 on: Yesterday at 06:13:09 AM »
MW: Semantics.

No, it's proof that you either didn't read very carefully or forgot what you read.


What would Walker be doing with only a Hidell ID? Where did he get it?

Like I said, Hill, Bentley, and Walker show up at the Homicide office with Oswald and the wallet in tow. Baker is in the Homicide office at that time. Bentley gives Baker the wallet, but leaves with Hill for the Personnel office. Walker stays behind in the room to guard Oswald for some amount of time before rejoining Hill and Bentley in the Personnel office.

Like I said, Hill, Bentley, and Walker show up at the Homicide office with Oswald and the wallet in tow. Baker is in the Homicide office at that time. Bentley gives Baker the wallet, but leaves with Hill for the Personnel office. Walker stays behind in the room to guard Oswald for some amount of time before rejoining Hill and Bentley in the Personnel office.

Too bad that Guy Rose said that he arrived at City Hall just after Oswald had been brought in. At that time somebody gave him a wallet and told him it belonged to Oswald. When Rose examined the wallet he found the Hidell ID.

This all happened at least two hours before Bentley gave a wallet to Lt Baker. If anybody didn't read the testimony and reports carefully it is you.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 06:31:25 AM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: CIA Wallets at Tenth and Patton
« Reply #85 on: Yesterday at 06:29:19 AM »


• Oswald confirmed to various Police Officers he was carrying a pistol

Mr. STERN - Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested.

Mr. McCLOY. Was it a sharpshooter's or a marksman's? There are two different types, you know.
Mr. HOSTY. I believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been living at 1026 North Beckley, that is in Dallas, Tex., at 1026 North Beckley under the name O. H. Lee and not under his true name.
Oswald admitted that he was present in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 22d of November 1963, where he had been employed since the 15th of October. Oswald told Captain Fritz that he was a laborer in this building and had access to the entire building. It had offices on the first and second floors with storage on third, fourth, fifth and sixth floors.
Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building.
He was asked why he left the School Book Depository that day, and he stated that in all the confusion he was certain that there would be no more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset, there was too much confusion, so he just decided that there would be no work for the rest of the day and so he went home. He got on a bus and went home. He went to his residence on North Beckley, changed his clothes, and then went to a movie.
Captain Fritz asked him if he always carried a pistol when he went to the movie, and he said he carried it because he felt like it. He admitted that he did have a pistol on him at the time of his arrest, in this theatre, in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas. He further admitted that he had resisted arrest and had received a bump and a cut as a result of his resisting of arrest. He then denied that he had killed Officer Tippit or President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.



• Officer McDonald confirms he removed the pistol from Oswald.

Mr. BALL - Your right hand?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir. Now, as we fell into the seats, I called out, "I have got him," and Officer T. A. Hutson, he came to the row behind us and grabbed Oswald around the neck. And then Officer C. T. Walker came into the row that we were in and grabbed his left arm. And Officer Ray Hawkins came to the row in front of us and grabbed him from the front.
By the time all three of these officers had got there, I had gotten my right hand on the butt of the pistol and jerked it free.


• Officer McDonald confirms he gave the pistol to Carroll

Mr. BALL - What happened when you jerked the pistol free?
Mr. McDONALD - When I jerked it free, I was down in the seats with him, with my head, some reason or other, I don't know why, and when I brought the pistol out, it grazed me across the cheek here, and I put it all the way out to the aisle, holding it by the butt. I gave the pistol to Detective Bob Carroll at that point.


• Carroll confirms he gave the pistol to Hill.

Mr. BALL. Whom did you give the gun to finally?
Mr. CARROLL. After I gave it to - Jerry Hill - that was the last time I had possession of it - possession of the gun.


• Hill confirms he took the pistol from Carroll.

Mr. BELIN. And being that he had the keys to the car, Bob Carroll drove the vehicle.
Mr. HILL. As he started to get in the car, he handed me a pistol, which he identified as the one that had been taken from the suspect in the theatre.


• Hill confirms that he kept the pistol on his person until he inscribed it with his name.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not from the time this gun was handed to you until the time you removed these six bullets, this gun was in your possession?
Mr. HILL. The gun remained in my possession until it, from the time it was given to me until the gun was marked and all the shells were marked. They remained in my personal possession. After they were marked, they were released by me to Detective T. L. Baker of the homicide bureau. He came to the personnel office and requested that they be given to him, and I marked them and turned them over to him at this point.


The chain of custody requires that from the moment the evidence is collected, every transfer of evidence from person to person be documented and that it be provable that nobody else could have accessed that evidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_of_custody

• Oswald confirmed to various Police Officers he was carrying a pistol
• McDonald confirms he took the pistol from Oswald.
• McDonald confirms he gave the pistol to Carroll.
• Carroll confirms he gave the pistol to Hill.
• Hill confirms he took the pistol from Carroll.
• Hill confirms that he kept the pistol on his person until he inscribed it with his name.
• The revolver in evidence has a paper trail leading directly to Oswald's PO Box.









JohnM


The chain of custody requires that from the moment the evidence is collected, every transfer of evidence from person to person be documented and that it be provable that nobody else could have accessed that evidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_of_custody

• Oswald confirmed to various Police Officers he was carrying a pistol
• McDonald confirms he took the pistol from Oswald.
• McDonald confirms he gave the pistol to Carroll.
• Carroll confirms he gave the pistol to Hill.
• Hill confirms he took the pistol from Carroll.
• Hill confirms that he kept the pistol on his person until he inscribed it with his name.
• The revolver in evidence has a paper trail leading directly to Oswald's PO Box.



Oh poor poor Johnny.... you clearly haven't understood anything.

The fact that Oswald confirmed that he was carrying a revolver (which he said he bought in Fort Worth) doesn't mean that the revolver Carroll ended up with is exactly that revolver.

McDonald did claim that he gave a revolver to Carroll, but the latter actually testified that he jerked a revolver from somebody's hand without being able to tell who that person was. Oops

Yes, Carroll give a revolver to Hill, as they got in the car but he only assumed it belonged to Oswald.

And Hill did indeed claim that he kept that revolver until he marked it at around 4:00 PM.

The problem here is that C.T. Walker, who was also in the car testified that he had the revolver when they arrived at City Hall and officer Bardin submitted the S & W revolver to the evidence room at 3:25 PM, a half jour before Hill alleged gave the revolver to Lt. Baker. Oops

And there goes the chain of custody!

Unless of course when somebody like you comes along and ignores the parts of the evidence he doesn't like so he can make up his own little fairytale narrative.  :D
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:03:21 AM by Martin Weidmann »

Online Richard Smith

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Re: CIA Wallets at Tenth and Patton
« Reply #86 on: Yesterday at 06:22:13 PM »
The logical fallacies are literally mind boggling.

Make you case and give me one example of a logical fallacy

I did.  If you entertain the possibility that Oswald did not kill Tippit and that the investigators were attempting to frame him for this crime as you do, then that is impossible to square with the investigators suppressing an Oswald wallet found at the Tippit murder scene as you also suggest happened.  The discovery of such a wallet at the murder scene is highly incriminating to its owner.  Your fantasy involves a wallet being suppressed because there would then be two Oswald wallets in evidence.  If the investigators have the ability to suppress one such wallet, then it's not going to be the one left at the crime scene because that links Oswald directly to the crime - either because he committed it or it was planted for that very purpose.  Either way no one has any incentive to suppress that wallet. If they need to put something in it from Oswald's arrest wallet or switch the wallets, they just do so because they control the evidence but there would no logical reason abandon the critical fact that it was left at the crime scene.  Your claims are not only baseless but contradictory in purpose with the investigators working against their own interest either in solving the crime or framing Oswald for that crime. 

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: CIA Wallets at Tenth and Patton
« Reply #87 on: Yesterday at 07:03:17 PM »
I did.  If you entertain the possibility that Oswald did not kill Tippit and that the investigators were attempting to frame him for this crime as you do, then that is impossible to square with the investigators suppressing an Oswald wallet found at the Tippit murder scene as you also suggest happened.  The discovery of such a wallet at the murder scene is highly incriminating to its owner.  Your fantasy involves a wallet being suppressed because there would then be two Oswald wallets in evidence.  If the investigators have the ability to suppress one such wallet, then it's not going to be the one left at the crime scene because that links Oswald directly to the crime - either because he committed it or it was planted for that very purpose.  Either way no one has any incentive to suppress that wallet. If they need to put something in it from Oswald's arrest wallet or switch the wallets, they just do so because they control the evidence but there would no logical reason abandon the critical fact that it was left at the crime scene.  Your claims are not only baseless but contradictory in purpose with the investigators working against their own interest either in solving the crime or framing Oswald for that crime.

If you entertain the possibility that Oswald did not kill Tippit and that the investigators were attempting to frame him for this crime as you do

No I don't. I'm just trying to resolve a massive discrepancy in the evidence, which is something the WC should have done but instead just ignored it.

You're just making stuff up in order to have something to attack and are failing miserably.

then that is impossible to square with the investigators suppressing an Oswald wallet found at the Tippit murder scene as you also suggest happened.

The only one who is constantly claiming that investigators suppressed a wallet found at the Tippit murder scene is you. You've been told this a number of times.

Your fantasy involves a wallet being suppressed because there would then be two Oswald wallets in evidence.

It's your fantasy, not mine and there are not two wallets in evidence. There couldn't be if one was suppressed. You are all over the place.

Your idiotic made up arguments go nowhere and only serve to obscure the fact that Bentley said he gave the wallet he took from Oswald to Lt Baker. We know from Hill this happened around 4:00 PM.

And T.C. Walker, who was present at the Tippit scene with Westbrook said he had a card with a picture of Oswald and the name Hidell on it. That card was found in a wallet that some unknown person gave to Guy Rose just after Oswald was brought into the City Hall and submitted to the evidence room at 3:25 PM

You have to be completely out of touch with reality to not understand that there were indeed two wallets of which only one was entered into evidence.

Try dealing with that for a moment instead of making up stuff and misrepresenting what I have said.


« Last Edit: Yesterday at 08:46:28 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: CIA Wallets at Tenth and Patton
« Reply #88 on: Today at 12:16:17 AM »
Like I said, Hill, Bentley, and Walker show up at the Homicide office with Oswald and the wallet in tow. Baker is in the Homicide office at that time. Bentley gives Baker the wallet, but leaves with Hill for the Personnel office. Walker stays behind in the room to guard Oswald for some amount of time before rejoining Hill and Bentley in the Personnel office.

Too bad that Guy Rose said that he arrived at City Hall just after Oswald had been brought in. At that time somebody gave him a wallet and told him it belonged to Oswald. When Rose examined the wallet he found the Hidell ID.

This all happened at least two hours before Bentley gave a wallet to Lt Baker. If anybody didn't read the testimony and reports carefully it is you.
MW: This all happened at least two hours before Bentley gave a wallet to Lt Baker.

Nobody actually said that.