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Author Topic: Education Forum Goes Off the Rails  (Read 2206 times)

Offline Lance Payette

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Re: Education Forum Goes Off the Rails
« Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 10:08:06 PM »
On the Zionism post at the Ed Forum with which Ben started this thread, Greg Doudna said a very wise thing yesterday:

On antisemitism. It must be condemned and repudiated, no less than any toxic racism. Here is one sure “tell” of antisemitism, which I know a little about in my field. When one hears invocation of the Gospels’ anti-Jewish tropes. This is the terrible hidden secret and burden of Christianity, that its very Passion salvation foundation origin myth [that demonizes] Jews, is antisemitic, scapegoating Jews for killing God. If you see or hear that, even as allusion from otherwise secular people, then you can KNOW antisemitism is going on.

This "Jews killed Jesus" thing really is the root of antisemitism, as opposed to legitimate questioning of the policies and practices of the political state of Israel. The error in the opposite direction that we hear all the time is that the political state of Israel must receive blind, unwavering support because "the Jews are God's chosen people." (Even if they actually are, equating the Jews with the political state of Israel is a category mistake.)

As you may or may not know, the Second Temple and the city of Jerusalem were razed and the Jews were driven out and enslaved by the Romans in 70 AD as a result of the First Jewish Revolt that began in 66 AD and ended at Masada in 73. The four Gospels and Acts were all written after 70 AD, when being a Jew was a risky and dangerous thing to be. Conversely, being pro-Roman was an entirely unrisky and non-dangerous thing to be. Not unsurprisingly, the Gospels and Acts and even some of the epistles have a distinct pro-Roman and anti-Jewish slant, going so far as to portray Pilate (who was finally recalled by Rome because his cruelty threatened peace in the region) as not such a bad guy and really kind of a philosophical sort - and even putting anti-Jewish and pro-Roman statements into the mouth of Jesus. Historians are in pretty much unanimous agreement that the Romans would not have hesitated a moment to crucify Jesus (probably precipitated by his outburst in the Temple) and that there is no way the Jewish populace would have been screaming for his death (after supposedly welcoming him into the city with cries of "Hosanna!" days earlier). Some members of the Sanhedrin may have been complicit, but certainly not "the Jews."

In short, the whole "Jews killed Jesus" (or "Jews killed God") thing is, as Greg says, a myth that has haunted and demonized the Jews for 2,000 years. I have relatives who care less about Jesus than I care about Scientology but who nevertheless "hate the Jews" for this bogus reason as though "hating the Jews" were simply what all decent people should do. It's completely ridiculous.

Online Kevin Balch

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Re: Education Forum Goes Off the Rails
« Reply #22 on: Today at 01:15:22 AM »
On the Zionism post at the Ed Forum with which Ben started this thread, Greg Doudna said a very wise thing yesterday:

On antisemitism. It must be condemned and repudiated, no less than any toxic racism. Here is one sure “tell” of antisemitism, which I know a little about in my field. When one hears invocation of the Gospels’ anti-Jewish tropes. This is the terrible hidden secret and burden of Christianity, that its very Passion salvation foundation origin myth [that demonizes] Jews, is antisemitic, scapegoating Jews for killing God. If you see or hear that, even as allusion from otherwise secular people, then you can KNOW antisemitism is going on.

This "Jews killed Jesus" thing really is the root of antisemitism, as opposed to legitimate questioning of the policies and practices of the political state of Israel. The error in the opposite direction that we hear all the time is that the political state of Israel must receive blind, unwavering support because "the Jews are God's chosen people." (Even if they actually are, equating the Jews with the political state of Israel is a category mistake.)

As you may or may not know, the Second Temple and the city of Jerusalem were razed and the Jews were driven out and enslaved by the Romans in 70 AD as a result of the First Jewish Revolt that began in 66 AD and ended at Masada in 73. The four Gospels and Acts were all written after 70 AD, when being a Jew was a risky and dangerous thing to be. Conversely, being pro-Roman was an entirely unrisky and non-dangerous thing to be. Not unsurprisingly, the Gospels and Acts and even some of the epistles have a distinct pro-Roman and anti-Jewish slant, going so far as to portray Pilate (who was finally recalled by Rome because his cruelty threatened peace in the region) as not such a bad guy and really kind of a philosophical sort - and even putting anti-Jewish and pro-Roman statements into the mouth of Jesus. Historians are in pretty much unanimous agreement that the Romans would not have hesitated a moment to crucify Jesus (probably precipitated by his outburst in the Temple) and that there is no way the Jewish populace would have been screaming for his death (after supposedly welcoming him into the city with cries of "Hosanna!" days earlier). Some members of the Sanhedrin may have been complicit, but certainly not "the Jews."

In short, the whole "Jews killed Jesus" (or "Jews killed God") thing is, as Greg says, a myth that has haunted and demonized the Jews for 2,000 years. I have relatives who care less about Jesus than I care about Scientology but who nevertheless "hate the Jews" for this bogus reason as though "hating the Jews" were simply what all decent people should do. It's completely ridiculous.

I think the bible is a fairy tale so I would never use it as supporting evidence for anything. On the other hand, antisemitism is more commonly being used like racism.

Offline Lance Payette

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Re: Education Forum Goes Off the Rails
« Reply #23 on: Today at 01:27:02 AM »
I think the bible is a fairy tale so I would never use it as supporting evidence for anything. On the other hand, antisemitism is more commonly being used like racism.

OK, but it is being used precisely like racism because of the underlying myth of the Jews as "Christ killers." Otherwise, the visceral hatred of the Jews is inexplicable. People don't just adopt antisemitic attitudes out of thin air. There is no comparable racist-like hatred of Egyptians or other cultures because they weren't "Christ killers." As I stated, that myth has now snowballed where people who care little or nothing about Jesus are antisemitic and really can't tell you why. (As an historical document, the Bible is not a fairy tale; it holds up well insofar as it describes the history of the periods in which it was written.)

Online Benjamin Cole

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Re: Education Forum Goes Off the Rails
« Reply #24 on: Today at 01:39:36 AM »
LP--

What is sad is that the anti-Semitic, anti-Israel crackpots came to roost at the Education Forum-JFKA, under the wing of William Niedernut, and the dull uncomprehending stare of John Simkin.

The EF-JFKA was long troubled by dubious moderation, and incessant bickering, sniping and trading of juvenile insults.

But it went off the rails under Niedernut.

Maybe the EF-JFKA can recover, or maybe the ship has sunk. We will see.