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Author Topic: Reasonable Doubts?  (Read 6754 times)

Online John Corbett

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Re: Reasonable Doubts?
« Reply #91 on: Yesterday at 07:00:27 PM »
HUH? Did you miss the statements below in the passages I quoted about Dr. Gregory's interview, or did you just not understand them? Let's read them again:

We mentioned to Dr. Gregory that we had looked forward to talking with Dr. Shaw but that he was unavailable. Dr. Gregory said he and Shaw had talked about the wounding of Connally, and both believed that Connally and Kennedy had been hit by separate shots. Why? Because of the character of Connally’s back wound, Gregory explained. It was small and elliptical in shape. But most importantly, it had very clean edges. No fibers had been carried into Connally’s back wound, while his wrist wound was fouled with numerous fibers from his wool suit.

Do you understand now? The projectile that hit Connally's wrist carried with it numerous fibers from his wool suit into the wrist wound, but Connally's back wound had no fibers in it. If the bullet that hit Connally's back had just torn through four layers of JFK's clothing, it would have carried fibers from that clothing into Connally's back wound, but Connally's back wound had no fibers in it.

This is one of the reasons that both Dr. Gregory and Dr. Shaw concluded that the bullet that hit Connally's back had not hit anything else first. 

Seriously? I'm sure Dr. Gregory didn't think that years later someone who doesn't even know the basics about the wounds in the case would question why he said the wound was elliptical.

He said the wound was elliptical because . . . it was elliptical. Dr. Shaw, the guy who operated on it, said it was elliptical: "The wound entrance was an elliptical wound" (6 H 95).

It was elliptical because it was elliptical??? Is that supposed to be an answer. If ever there was a case of circular logic, this was it. I would bet a forensic pathologist would come to a very different conclusion about the elliptical wound. In fact the FPP panel did reach a very different conclusion. With one dissent, the panel concluded that the bullet that hit JBC in the back had first passed through JFK's torso. 

Online Michael T. Griffith

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Re: Reasonable Doubts?
« Reply #92 on: Yesterday at 10:02:20 PM »
It was elliptical because it was elliptical??? Is that supposed to be an answer. If ever there was a case of circular logic, this was it.

What in the world? I will charitably assume you must have a reading problem. I pointed out that Dr. Shaw, who operated on the wound, said it was elliptical, and then I quoted him saying it was elliptical. Let me quote him again:

The wound entrance was an elliptical wound. (6 H 95)

And, to repeat, he's the guy who operated on the wound. He also explained that he debrided the wound elliptically, around its edges.

You know the wound measured 1.5 x 0.8 cm, right? You know this, right? That's almost identical in size to JFK's rear head entry wound--1.5 x 0.6 cm--yet no one has ever floated the theory that the head-shot bullet was markedly tumbling when it struck.

For newcomers who haven't read the whole thread, I should add that Dr. Shaw also pointed out that Connally's back-wound bullet created a "small tunneling wound" (7 HSCA 149), and he noted "the neat way in which it stripped the rib out without doing much damage to the muscles that lay on either side of it" (4 H 116), which debunks the idea that the bullet was markedly tumbling--either when it hit or when it tore through Connally.

BTW, Dr. Shaw was an experienced thoracic surgeon who had operated on over 1,000 gunshot cases, so he had vast experience with bullet wounds. (Ah, but John Corbett says, "That doesn't matter! He wasn't a forensic pathologist!")

I would bet a forensic pathologist would come to a very different conclusion about the elliptical wound.

Then you'd better quit gambling. Let's see:

Dr. Robert Kirschner, a forensic pathologist and one of the ARRB's three forensic experts, said the the SBT was "very dubious."

Dr. William F. Enos, the forensic pathologist who supervised CBS's SBT wound ballistics test, said the SBT was "highly improbable."

Dr. Milton Helpern, one of the foremost forensic pathologists of the 20th century, said the SBT was impossible, that not even an FMJ bullet could do all the damage claimed for it and emerge with its lands and grooves intact and with such a tiny loss of its substance.

Dr. Joseph Nichols, a professor of pathology at the University of Kansas who trained forensic pathologists, who had numerous articles on pathology published in peer-reviewed medical journals, and who was also a court-certified expert witness in forensic pathology, said the SBT was impossible for a number of reasons: the conflicting angles through JFK and Connally, CE 399's virtually undamaged condition; the lack of an unobstructed path from either of the proposed entry sites to JFK's throat wound; among other reasons.

Dr. Vincent DiMaio, one of the leading forensic pathologists of the 20th and 21st century, initially accepted the SBT but later changed his mind after studying the SBT more closely with medical scientist Russell Kent.

In fact the FPP panel did reach a very different conclusion. With one dissent, the panel concluded that the bullet that hit JBC in the back had first passed through JFK's torso.

LOL! Oh, so NOW you're back to citing the FPP majority! Pure comedy. And this after you just recently claimed that you "don't have to explain" the FPP's finding that the brain photos, if authentic, categorically rule out the EOP site; their finding that the skull x-rays do not show the low fragment trail described in the autopsy report; their finding that the only fragment trail on the skull x-rays is the high fragment trail with its cluster of numerous tiny fragments in the right-frontal region; and their finding that JFK's back-wound bullet entered and tunneled at an upward angle--a fact that they could only explain by bogusly assuming JFK was leaning over 50 degrees forward when the bullet hit!

If you would ever bother to actually read the FPP's report, you would discover that the FPP majority made no effort to explain the fact that the projectile that hit Connally's wrist deposited fibers in the wound but that the bullet that hit Connally's back deposited zero fibers, even though it had supposedly torn through four layers of JFK's clothing and two layers of Connally's clothing. The FPP majority also made no effort to explain how the alleged magic bullet could have nicked the top surface of the tie knot inward from the left edge while making no hole through the tie knot nor through any other part of the tie. 

And, as mentioned, the only way the FPP majority could explain the JFK back-wound bullet's upward impact angle and upward tunneling was by making the demonstrably false assumption that Kennedy was leaning forward by over 50 degrees.

We have known for decades now that there was no hole through JFK's tie and that the nick on the knot was not on the edge of the knot. In fact, in an effort to create the false impression that a bullet passed through the tie knot, the FBI made an evidence photo of the knot with the knot twisted in such a way that the nick appeared to be in the middle of the knot. When Harold Weisberg, through years of FOIA suits, finally gained access to high-quality photos of the tie, he discovered there was no hole through the tie, a fact that the HSCA later quietly admitted.

Yet, SBT believers continue to ignore this hard physical evidence and still peddle their debunked theory. You guys are like Flat Earthers who ignore satellite images of the Earth and continue to insist the globe is flat.

JFK's Clothing Proves the Single-Bullet Theory Is Impossible
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MAgWA0frOLVeWY6ok9nzdrgpRN4Wv1AL/view?usp=sharing




« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:06:39 PM by Michael T. Griffith »

Online John Corbett

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Re: Reasonable Doubts?
« Reply #93 on: Today at 12:19:45 AM »
What in the world? I will charitably assume you must have a reading problem. I pointed out that Dr. Shaw, who operated on the wound, said it was elliptical, and then I quoted him saying it was elliptical. Let me quote him again:

The wound entrance was an elliptical wound. (6 H 95)

I don't have a reading problem. You have a memory problem and now you are flat out lying about what you wrote in your previous post. I'm going to do a COPY and PASTE to make sure I quote you verbatim, and then I'm going to jam it up your nose. You wrote:

"He said the wound was elliptical because . . . it was elliptical."

And then you turn around and tell me I have a reading problem. Maybe you should use the modify function to go back and erase what you originally wrote and maybe you can fool people into believing you didn't actually write what I quoted you saying.

Nothing makes me laugh more than when you step in it like this.
Quote

And, to repeat, he's the guy who operated on the wound. He also explained that he debrided the wound elliptically, around its edges.

You know the wound measured 1.5 x 0.8 cm, right? You know this, right? That's almost identical in size to JFK's rear head entry wound--1.5 x 0.6 cm--yet no one has ever floated the theory that the head-shot bullet was markedly tumbling when it struck.

No one is disputing the entry wound was elliptical. The question is why was it elliptical. Because of your clumsy attempt to quote Shaw out of context, we don't really know what he said. I'm sure he didn't say something as dumb as what you attributed to him. "He said the wound was elliptical because . . . it was elliptical.". That is hilarious.
Quote

For newcomers who haven't read the whole thread, I should add that Dr. Shaw also pointed out that Connally's back-wound bullet created a "small tunneling wound" (7 HSCA 149), and he noted "the neat way in which it stripped the rib out without doing much damage to the muscles that lay on either side of it" (4 H 116), which debunks the idea that the bullet was markedly tumbling--either when it hit or when it tore through Connally.

The scar on JBC's back was 1 1/8" by 3/8". The exit wound was incorporated in the surgical scar so the HSCA could not measure that. The hole in his jacked was smaller than the entry wound. 3/8" by 5/8", a little more than half the length of the entry scar.. Sounds to me like it was tumbling.
Quote

BTW, Dr. Shaw was an experienced thoracic surgeon who had operated on over 1,000 gunshot cases, so he had vast experience with bullet wounds. (Ah, but John Corbett says, "That doesn't matter! He wasn't a forensic pathologist!")

Then you'd better quit gambling. Let's see:

Dr. Robert Kirschner, a forensic pathologist and one of the ARRB's three forensic experts, said the the SBT was "very dubious."

Dr. William F. Enos, the forensic pathologist who supervised CBS's SBT wound ballistics test, said the SBT was "highly improbable."

Dr. Milton Helpern, one of the foremost forensic pathologists of the 20th century, said the SBT was impossible, that not even an FMJ bullet could do all the damage claimed for it and emerge with its lands and grooves intact and with such a tiny loss of its substance.

Dr. Joseph Nichols, a professor of pathology at the University of Kansas who trained forensic pathologists, who had numerous articles on pathology published in peer-reviewed medical journals, and who was also a court-certified expert witness in forensic pathology, said the SBT was impossible for a number of reasons: the conflicting angles through JFK and Connally, CE 399's virtually undamaged condition; the lack of an unobstructed path from either of the proposed entry sites to JFK's throat wound; among other reasons.

Dr. Vincent DiMaio, one of the leading forensic pathologists of the 20th and 21st century, initially accepted the SBT but later changed his mind after studying the SBT more closely with medical scientist Russell Kent.

Why is it you can cite all these medical examiners but you can never quote them saying why they thought the SBT was impossible, dubious, or unlikely? Either they didn't give a reason or they did and what they said isn't quite what you have claimed they said. Based on your past history, either seems plausible to me.

BTW, all members of the FPP except Wecht agreed with the SBT and they saw the original autopsy materials.
Quote

LOL! Oh, so NOW you're back to citing the FPP majority! Pure comedy. And this after you just recently claimed that you "don't have to explain" the FPP's finding that the brain photos, if authentic, categorically rule out the EOP site; their finding that the skull x-rays do not show the low fragment trail described in the autopsy report; their finding that the only fragment trail on the skull x-rays is the high fragment trail with its cluster of numerous tiny fragments in the right-frontal region; and their finding that JFK's back-wound bullet entered and tunneled at an upward angle--a fact that they could only explain by bogusly assuming JFK was leaning over 50 degrees forward when the bullet hit!

So it's OK for you to cite forensic examiners who never saw the original autopsy evidence and then you chastise me for citing a panel of forensic examiners who did. 
Quote

If you would ever bother to actually read the FPP's report, you would discover that the FPP majority made no effort to explain the fact that the projectile that hit Connally's wrist deposited fibers in the wound but that the bullet that hit Connally's back deposited zero fibers, even though it had supposedly torn through four layers of JFK's clothing and two layers of Connally's clothing.

So what is your point. Are you trying to say the bullet that entered JBC's back didn't first go through his shirt and jacket?
Quote

The FPP majority also made no effort to explain how the alleged magic bullet could have nicked the top surface of the tie knot inward from the left edge while making no hole through the tie knot nor through any other part of the tie.

They apparently thought no one would be anal enough to think that mattered.
Quote
 

And, as mentioned, the only way the FPP majority could explain the JFK back-wound bullet's upward impact angle and upward tunneling was by making the demonstrably false assumption that Kennedy was leaning forward by over 50 degrees.

We've been over this before. It is absurd to argue the shot that entered his back was fired from below him. As I recall, you tried to argue this was evidence the shot came from the Dal-Tex. You never bothered to explain why a bullet could enter his back on that angle from the Dal-Tex but not from the TSBD.
Quote

We have known for decades now that there was no hole through JFK's tie and that the nick on the knot was not on the edge of the knot. In fact, in an effort to create the false impression that a bullet passed through the tie knot, the FBI made an evidence photo of the knot with the knot twisted in such a way that the nick appeared to be in the middle of the knot. When Harold Weisberg, through years of FOIA suits, finally gained access to high-quality photos of the tie, he discovered there was no hole through the tie, a fact that the HSCA later quietly admitted.

What difference does it make if the bullet went through the knot, just nicked it, or missed it completely? It came out his throat and went on to go through JBC.
Quote

Yet, SBT believers continue to ignore this hard physical evidence and still peddle their debunked theory. You guys are like Flat Earthers who ignore satellite images of the Earth and continue to insist the globe is flat.

The SBT has never been debunked. It remains the only plausible explanation for the two men's wounds that is consistent with the body of evidence. If you dispute that, give us an alternative scenario that explains the wounds. The WC told us where the shot was fired from, the wounds it caused, and where the bullet ended up. It would be nice if your explanation could do the same if by any chance it ever sees the light of day.
Quote

JFK's Clothing Proves the Single-Bullet Theory Is Impossible
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MAgWA0frOLVeWY6ok9nzdrgpRN4Wv1AL/view?usp=sharing

It does no such thing. That's just CT FUBAR figuring.

Online Benjamin Cole

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Re: Reasonable Doubts?
« Reply #94 on: Today at 12:55:57 AM »
MTG--


Do you understand now? The projectile that hit Connally's wrist carried with it numerous fibers from his wool suit into the wrist wound, but Connally's back wound had no fibers in it. If the bullet that hit Connally's back had just torn through four layers of JFK's clothing, it would have carried fibers from that clothing into Connally's back wound, but Connally's back wound had no fibers in it.

This is one of the reasons that both Dr. Gregory and Dr. Shaw concluded that the bullet that hit Connally's back had not hit anything else first.
---MTG

This is interesting, and another reason to be skeptical of the LNT-SBT theories.

The record shows Drs. Gregory and Shaw were skeptical of the SBT. Shaw must be regarded as extremely intelligent and experienced, and  hands-on participant viewing and treating JBC's wounds. No mere theoretician, or JFKA hobbyist.

I am skeptical of SBT-LNT. I have reasonable doubts.

Online Zeon Mason

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Re: Reasonable Doubts?
« Reply #95 on: Today at 01:25:34 AM »
The nose of CE 399 bullet was not even scratched. The nose remained perfectly round , no deformation whatsoever. It’s a miracle bullet it seems. Especially where it was found( was it the limo, or the stretcher, or did fell out on the floor?)and later changed its appearance from pointed to ball nosed.

The imaginative solution for the nose not being even scratched is because it was spinning end over end as it struck into John Connallys right hand wrist bone backwards!  (That way only some lead flakes get embedded in the hand  ::) then it continued to cut  thru the hand  apparently like a small circular saw would. And even doing that the nose of the bullet remained perfectly round without even a slight knick or dent. ???

So I’m reasonably in doubt about the SBT too.
« Last Edit: Today at 01:30:39 AM by Zeon Mason »