JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
Did LHO fire a shot that missed everything? If so, when did he fire it?
Tom Graves:
--- Quote from: Benjamin Cole on April 26, 2026, 02:04:15 AM ---Thanks for your comments.
--- End quote ---
You're welcome.
John Corbett:
--- Quote from: Tom Graves on April 26, 2026, 01:13:41 AM ---Put rhetorically, at what point other than between frames Z-142 and Z-149 do JFK, Jackie, JBC, Nellie, and Kellerman quickly turn their heads within half-a-second of each other?
Note: The turning of their heads signifies their conscious decisions to do so and therefore are not their "startle reactions."
--- End quote ---
You are assuming the turning of the heads is a reaction to hearing a gunshot and that they would turn their heads if they heard a gunshot. Jackie only remembered hearing 2 shots so I don't think she even recognized the first gunshot. She wasn't the only one. JFK did not seem to react to it either. Zapruder's camera jiggle at Z55 isn't proof positive of a gun shot 7 frames earlier but since that same pattern was repeated on the subsequent shot, I think it is the best indication we have of when the first shot was fired. If I remember right you are postulating a first shot at virtual frame 124. That would mean the reaction you think you see at Z142 was almost 1 second later. That seems like a very slow startle response to me.
Tom Graves:
--- Quote from: John Corbett on April 26, 2026, 02:21:16 AM ---If I remember right, you are postulating a first shot at virtual frame 124. That would mean the reaction you think you see at Z-142 was almost one second later. That seems like a very slow startle response to me.
--- End quote ---
If you'll go back and read my earlier posts, you'll see that I'm not talking about their "startle responses."
I'm talking about their intentional head turns about a second after their "startle responses."
Which "startle responses," if the first shot did occur half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133 (and pretty darn far from his camera), probably wouldn't be discernable by us, anyway.
Regarding said intentional head turns:
1) JFK starts a quick look to the left at Z-142
2) Jackie starts accelerated head turning left at Z-142
3) Connally begins a quick head turn left at Z-149, followed by quickly looking back right.
4) Nellie begins a quick sweeping head turn to the right at Z-144
5) Kellerman begins leaning over and looking behind/down to the right at Z-148
ME: What are the typical characteristics of the "startle reaction" / "startle response" of a person who hears a loud noise behind them?
GROK: The typical "startle reaction" to a sudden loud noise from behind is an automatic, involuntary acoustic startle reflex (also called the startle response or startle pattern). This is a rapid defensive reaction mediated by the brainstem that happens in a fraction of a second — often before you’re consciously aware of the sound.
Sequence of the Typical Reaction
Immediate muscle response (within ~30–100 milliseconds):
Eye blink (the fastest and most reliable component).
Neck and shoulder contraction: The head and shoulders jerk downward or forward slightly (a "head dip" or shrug). [Note: Not a turning of the head]
Upper body flexion: Arms bend inward toward the chest, fists may clench, and the torso hunches or crouches protectively.
Leg response: Knees may bend slightly; in stronger reactions, the whole body jumps or flinches upward.
Orienting/turning component (slightly slower, ~200–500 ms):
Because the noise is behind you, you’ll often rapidly turn your head and upper body toward the source to identify the threat. This is part of the "orienting response" that follows the initial startle.
Autonomic (body-wide) effects:
Heart rate spikes.
Adrenaline surge (fight-or-flight activation).
Increased alertness and faster breathing.
Sweating or a brief "cold" feeling.
Why This Pattern?
Evolutionarily, a loud noise from behind signals a potential predator or danger you can’t see. The reflex protects vital areas (neck, spine, eyes) and prepares you to either flee or turn and confront the threat. It’s very consistent across people, though the intensity varies based on:
How unexpected or loud the noise is.
Individual factors (anxiety level, fatigue, caffeine, PTSD, etc. — people with anxiety or trauma often show exaggerated responses).
Context (you’re less startled in a noisy environment you expect).
Everyday ExamplesJumping and whipping your head around when someone drops a tray behind you in a café.
The classic "someone sneaks up and yells 'Boo!'" reaction — shoulders up, arms in, then spin around.
Drivers slamming on the brakes or swerving slightly after a loud horn from behind.
The startle reflex is one of the most reliable and well-studied responses in psychology and neuroscience. It’s used in labs to measure fear, anxiety, and neurological function because it’s so automatic. In most healthy people, it lasts only a second or two before conscious control and appraisal take over ("Oh, it was just a door slamming").
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTdQzXuoXgU
Costella-frame-by-frame:
https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/
Tom Graves:
--- Quote from: John Corbett on April 26, 2026, 02:21:16 AM ---You are assuming the turning of the heads is a reaction to hearing a gunshot and that they would turn their heads if they heard a gunshot.
--- End quote ---
If JFK and the others heard a loud firecracker / backfire sound (or, in Connally's case, the sound of a high-powered rifle shot) behind them while travelling down Elm Street in "nut country" Dallas, would you expect them to continue looking in the direction they were looking before the sound and to perhaps start chatting about it, or would you expect them to, after the original shock, quickly turn their heads to try to figure out where the sound had come from and/or to see the reactions their spouses / colleagues?
When five of the six people in the limo do it nearly simultaneously, it's highly unlikely that it's just a coincidence.
John Corbett:
--- Quote from: Tom Graves on April 26, 2026, 03:01:24 AM ---If you'll go back and read my earlier posts, you'll see that I'm not talking about their "startle responses."
I'm talking about their intentional head turns about a second after their "startle responses."
Which "startle responses," if the first shot did occur half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming at Z-133 (and pretty darn far from his camera), probably wouldn't be discernable by us, anyway.
Regarding said intentional head turns:
1) JFK starts a quick look to the left at Z-142
2) Jackie starts accelerated head turning left at Z-142
3) Connally begins a quick head turn left at Z-149, followed by quickly looking back right.
4) Nellie begins a quick sweeping head turn to the right at Z-144
5) Kellerman begins leaning over and looking behind/down to the right at Z-148
--- End quote ---
Your whole premise is based on the assumption that these head movements were all cause by the same stimulus and that stimulus was Oswald's first shot. That doesn't seem very compelling proof to me of a shot at virtual Z124. I'd also like to know how you pinpointed it at the instant. I've explained how I have arrived at my conclusion the first shot was fired at Z148. Maybe you have explained it before but I'm not going to search the archives to find it. It would be a needle in the haystack for me to do it. Please give us the Reader's Digest version of how you reached your conclusion as to the specific time of the first shot.
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