The Tippit Shooting At 1:15-1:16, FACT

[Martin Weidmann]

Why is the precise time of death the least bit irrelevant to the question of who shot Tippit?

It isn't. If Tippit was indeed at the hospital being declared D.O.A. at 1:15 PM, he couldn't have been shot at 1:14:30. It must have happened earlier.

As to the relevance, ask the FBI who pestered the hospital staff for days why it was relevant to them.

[John Corbett]

It isn't. If Tippit was indeed at the hospital being declared D.O.A. at 1:15 PM, he couldn't have been shot at 1:14:30. It must have happened earlier.

As to the relevance, ask the FBI who pestered the hospital staff for days why it was relevant to them.

The key word being "IF".

[Martin Weidmann]

The key word being "IF".

IF is a word frequently used by people who keep an open mind. You should try it some time.

[Lance Payette]

But if the DOA time isn't a major issue, as you say, can you come up with an explanation for the FBI pestering hospital workers for days about this exact matter?

FWIW: DVP's site has this explanation of the time discrepancy from Dale Myers:

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/tippit-timelines.html

Due to the inaccuracy of the clocks at Methodist Hospital, there clearly was a time discrepancy. I had seen an interview (or perhaps testimony) with a Methodist Hospital nurse who explained the problem and the FBI's efforts to clarify with Dr. Moellenhoff - but now, naturally, I can't find it. Is this the "pestering" you're referring to? I suppose I can see the FBI trying to nail down a reasonably accurate timeline for exactly the reasons being discussed here. Someone probably saw the 1:15 on the Authorized Permit for Autopsy Form and said "That can't be right" (in terms of a death determination at the hospital). Since Tippit was taken to the ER, there presumably did have to be an official determination that "He's gone," but it sounds like that was sometime between 1:15 and 1:30.

[Martin Weidmann]

FWIW: DVP's site has this explanation of the time discrepancy from Dale Myers:

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/tippit-timelines.html

Due to the inaccuracy of the clocks at Methodist Hospital, there clearly was a time discrepancy. I had seen an interview (or perhaps testimony) with a Methodist Hospital nurse who explained the problem and the FBI's efforts to clarify with Dr. Moellenhoff - but now, naturally, I can't find it. Is this the "pestering" you're referring to? I suppose I can see the FBI trying to nail down a reasonably accurate timeline for exactly the reasons being discussed here. Someone probably saw the 1:15 on the Authorized Permit for Autopsy Form and said "That can't be right" (in terms of a death determination at the hospital). Since Tippit was taken to the ER, there presumably did have to be an official determination that "He's gone," but it sounds like that was sometime between 1:15 and 1:30.

Due to the inaccuracy of the clocks at Methodist Hospital, there clearly was a time discrepancy.

Who determined there was an inaccuracy of the clocks?

I had seen an interview (or perhaps testimony) with a Methodist Hospital nurse who explained the problem and the FBI's efforts to clarify with Dr. Moellenhoff - but now, naturally, I can't find it. Is this the "pestering" you're referring to?

I have seen that interview but, as far as I remember, she doesn't mention the "FBI's efforts to clarify with Dr. Moellenhoff." She does say that the FBI kept on calling staff members, so yes, that's the pestering I refered to.

But even if they only contacted Dr. Moellenhoff, just what would be the reason for that? A FD 302 dated November 29, 1963 written by FBI agent C. Lish shows they had already contacted Dr Liguori.

I suppose I can see the FBI trying to nail down a reasonably accurate timeline for exactly the reasons being discussed here.

Ok, but that's not what they did. Instead they muddied the waters by giving a different time in the FD 302 then what the original time confirmed by Davenport was. Even worse, on the FD 302 the time was obviously altered after the fact.

Someone probably saw the 1:15 on the Authorized Permit for Autopsy Form and said "That can't be right" (in terms of a death determination at the hospital).

That's pure speculation. It doesn't match what the nurse said in the interview. According to her it was the FBI who kept asking if the DOA time was correct. How would the FBI even know what the DOA time was and why would they care?

The Authorized Permit for Autospy was only send to Dr. J.M. Pickard. County Health Officer, District Attorney Henry Wade and Captain Fritz. None of these people were present when Tippit was declared DOA and would have no reason to doubt the veracity of the time, unless of course they understood that the time didn't fit with the desired narrative.

Since Tippit was taken to the ER, there presumably did have to be an official determination that "He's gone," but it sounds like that was sometime between 1:15 and 1:30.

More speculation! Davenport, who followed the ambulance, stated that when the ambulance arrived at the hospital the doctors tried to revive Tippit before declaring him DOA at 1:15 PM

There is nothing that could justify a time between 1:15 and 1:30. The attempt to revive Tippit could in fact point to an arrival time of the ambulance before 1:15 PM

[Lance Payette]

Why is the precise time of death the least bit irrelevant to the question of who shot Tippit?

Your attitude toward everything JFKA-related seems to be little more than "Oswald shot JFKA and there's nothing else to talk about" and "Oswald shot Tippit and there's nothing else to talk about." It's not just the proverbial 30,000-foot level, but more like the 120,000-foot level. Yet here you are, day after day, defending your particular version of the LN narrative with a zeal the Jehovah's Witnesses would envy. "There's nothing to talk about" - but you manage to talk about it pretty much all day every day.

The fact is, it seems to me pretty obvious that Oswald shot Tippit. As with all things JFKA-related, however, there are an almost supernatural number of quirks and discrepancies - an extremely tight timeline, odd behavior by Tippit, conflicting witness accounts, yada yada. Greg Doudna has spent a great deal of time on a scenario, which other CTers of reasonably high quality agree with, that doesn't have Oswald shooting Tippit at all. It sounds wildly implausible to me, but at least it suggests there is something worth talking about. The "precise time" at which several things occurred is pretty critical if it potentially pushes the encounter to a time impossible for Oswald to have been there.

To me, it's at least interesting at the level of trying to assess whether there is any "there" there. That's why I'm also interested in the "why" questions that you find irrelevant: Why did Tippit stop Oswald, if that's what occurred? Why did Tippit get out of his car? Why did Oswald shoot him, if that's what occurred? If the most plausible answer to those "why" questions is something other than the standard LN narrative, then where might that lead?

If one just wants to keep parroting the JFKA equivalent of "The Bible is true and you're going to hell," then I don't see the point.

[Michael Capasse]

FWIW: DVP's site has this explanation of the time discrepancy from Dale Myers:

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/tippit-timelines.html

Due to the inaccuracy of the clocks at Methodist Hospital, there clearly was a time discrepancy. I had seen an interview (or perhaps testimony) with a Methodist Hospital nurse who explained the problem and the FBI's efforts to clarify with Dr. Moellenhoff - but now, naturally, I can't find it. Is this the "pestering" you're referring to? I suppose I can see the FBI trying to nail down a reasonably accurate timeline for exactly the reasons being discussed here. Someone probably saw the 1:15 on the Authorized Permit for Autopsy Form and said "That can't be right" (in terms of a death determination at the hospital). Since Tippit was taken to the ER, there presumably did have to be an official determination that "He's gone," but it sounds like that was sometime between 1:15 and 1:30.

Well then, I have a problem with 4 official documents 2 from the FBI and 2 from DPD - All related to time of death.
Each one is blotched and corrected at the ten minute place mark of time.
https://jfk.boards.net/post/57/thread

Yet, there is this time line ignored:
Helen Markham saw the time when she left Washateria as 1:04p
At 417 E Tenth St. (told to Barry Ernst) -  Mrs. Margie Higgin's, mantle clock at the time of the shooting and a news check on her television as 1:06p
TF Bowley's watch at the time he arrived at the scene as 1:10p

I'm old enough to remember windup watches. It is ridiculous to think nobody knows what time it is.
Except that Tippit was shot at 1:15pm +/-