Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272

[Andrew Mason]

 

That means 4 of them figured it out and the other 3 didn't.

Or the other way around.

The Connallys always maintained 3 shots, 3 hits and they were in a very good position to know.

A lot has been learned since 1978. Most people hadn't even seen the Zapruder film by 1978. It was sometime in the latter 1980s that I first saw it.There is nothing in the WC conclusions that indicate they thought the shot was closer to Z210.

My comment was based on the scenario where the first shot struck JFK. The Commission noted the abundant evidence that the first shot did not miss (WR 112):



The WC suggested that if the first shot did not miss and the third was the last shot (for which they cited much evidence) then the shooter was shooting at very near the minimum allowable time between shots, which would put the first shot striking JFK "at about frame z213" (WR 115).

WRONG!!! JBC is most definitely reacting in Z226 when he starts flipping his right arm upward in perfect unison with JFK bringing his arms up. That up and down motion of his right arm lasted just a half second and was immediately followed by him doubling over and dipping to his right. In addition, JBC's right shoulder dips at Z225 and in Z224 his jacket bulges out noticeably. All these are indications he has just been shot.

The delay was based on the first shot striking JFK.  They were trying to understand why JBC did not feel it immediately (WR 112):



They noted that JFK seemed to be reacting to his neck wound by raising his hands to his throat and that he was blocked by the Stemmons sign (WR 98).  Although Shaneyfelt had suggested his reaction was "barely apparent" at z225, the Commission put that comment in quotes and did not adopt it as their conclusion.  After all, JFK's left forearm had moved from a vertical position on his right side to a horizontal position in front of his chest by z 224 and the right hand from a vertical wave to a horizontal curl.  The WC may have thought that was a bit more than a "barely apparent" reaction.

The reduction in the amount of white area of the shirt from z223-224 appears to be the reverse of the increase in white area from z222-223.  Besides, no one at the time had even suggested this was a bulge let alone a bulge from the bullet striking it.

In any event, there is well corroborated evidence that both did react to the first shot so there is nothing "co-incidental" about their reactions being at roughly the same time.  One might expect JBC's to be slower since his was a deliberate reaction after realizing that it was a rifle shot and an assassination was underway.  Most observers, including members of the Commission, thought there was a material delay in JBC's reaction.

Where are you getting your information? The entry wound on JBC's back was elongated almost the length of a Carcano bullet. The bullet had to be tumbling to make that kind of wound and the father/son Haas ballistics showed they a Carcano bullet will tumble after passing through ballistic gel as well as ballistic soap.
The WC scenario with a single bullet striking two men is the only explanation of the shooting that has stood the test of time. Any objections to it are easily refuted.

I am not sure where you are getting your information but it is not correct.  The wound in the back was 1.5 cm by .8 cm. The bullet was exactly 3 cm long. Dr. Shaw said the bullet made a nice tunnelling wound along the fifth rib and "The fact that the muscle bundles on either side of the fifth rib were not damaged meant that the missile to strip away 10 centimeters of the rib had to follow this rib pretty much along its line of inclination." (4 H 112).  Difficult to imagine a sideways bullet doing that.

It is a much bigger challenge to explain how a shot with JBC turned forward could have entered at the back of the armpit and exited under and medial to his right nipple without penetrating the pleural cavity and without damaging any of the muscles around the rib. If the bullet had deflected to the right with him facing forward, it would not have exited where it did.  However, with him turned around sharply to the rear, the right nipple moves to the right of the scapula. So the fifth rib keeping the bullet to the right before passing through the rib (at mid-armpit) keeps the bullet from penetrating the chest wall.  Turn around like that from a sitting position and you can see how the right nipple moves a bit to the right of the scapula and you can see how the fifth rib makes an almost straight path between them.

[John Corbett]

Or the other way around.

The Connallys always maintained 3 shots, 3 hits and they were in a very good position to know.

How would JBC have known whether JFK was hit by the first shot or the second.
As for Nellie, she didn't get much of anything right.
[quote
 
My comment was based on the scenario where the first shot struck JFK. The Commission noted the abundant evidence that the first shot did not miss (WR 112):
[/quote]
You must have missed the first line on page 112:
"Governor Connally's testimony supports the view that the first shot missed"

The WC suggested that if the first shot did not miss and the third was the last shot (for which they cited much evidence) then the shooter was shooting at very near the minimum allowable time between shots, which would put the first shot striking JFK "at about frame z213" (WR 115).
The delay was based on the first shot striking JFK.  They were trying to understand why JBC did not feel it immediately (WR 112):

JFK and JBC both felt it at the same time and both reacted at the same time when both of them threw their arms upward in perfect unison at Z226. It's no wonder they had a hard time understanding how Oswald could have fired so rapidly AND so accurately if there had been a second shot miss.

This passage shows just how wrong witnesses can be.
" According to Altgens, he snapped the picture "almost simultaneously" with a shot which he is confident was the first one fired."
His photo has been synced to Z255 which isn't even close to the time either the first or second shot was fired. The reality is it was taken 2 seconds after the second shot was fired and hit both men. Altgens statement doesn't even fit your theory that the shots were fired at Z193 and Z271. I can't find the full set of Altgens photos but it would not surprise me if he actually took photo #5 simultaneously with the first shot, but that's speculation. What isn't speculation is that he got it wrong.

Clint Hill also got it wrong. He only remembers hearing 2 shots. He remembers the shot that hit JFK in the back thinking that was the first shot. He race forward and saw the head shot at what he estimates was 5 seconds. That's pretty close. It was actually 4.9 seconds between the two shots which struck JFK. So which shot didn't he hear. An earlier first shot or an intervening shot between the two that hit JFK. It's hard for me to believe he wouldn't have heard an intervening shot between the two which hit JFK.

They noted that JFK seemed to be reacting to his neck wound by raising his hands to his throat and that he was blocked by the Stemmons sign (WR 98).  Although Shaneyfelt had suggested his reaction was "barely apparent" at z225, the Commission put that comment in quotes and did not adopt it as their conclusion.  After all, JFK's left forearm had moved from a vertical position on his right side to a horizontal position in front of his chest by z 224 and the right hand from a vertical wave to a horizontal curl.  The WC may have thought that was a bit more than a "barely apparent" reaction.

If the WC had the benefit of modern technology and more time to look at blow ups of the Z-frames.  they might have figured out that JFK's right hand was still moving down at Z225 and didn't start upward until Z226, the same frame JBC's arm started up. Coincidence? Hardly.

The reduction in the amount of white area of the shirt from z223-224 appears to be the reverse of the increase in white area from z222-223.  Besides, no one at the time had even suggested this was a bulge let alone a bulge from the bullet striking it.

Another example of the WC missing clues because they lacked the technology to do a frame-by-frame study with magnified frames. What they did was create still photos of the magnified frames but that didn't allow them to see the subtle changes from frame to frame like the bulging of JBC's jacket or JFK's hand still moving downward at Z225. They also apparently missed the upward movement of JBC's right arm at Z226. I don't blame them for that. It took decades and armies of researchers to discover these very important clues.

In any event, both did react to the first shot so there is nothing "co-incidental" about their reactions being at roughly the same time.  One might expect JBC's to be slower since his was a deliberate reaction after realizing that it was a rifle shot and an assassination was underway. 

So you have JFK reacting to getting shot and JBC reacting to the sound of a shot at precisely the same time and in precisely the same manner, even though according to you that even happened 33 frames, almost 2 seconds earlier. You also choose to ignore immediately after his arm flip, JBC doubled over and dipped to his right, then began twisting dramatically in his seat. And you want to pretend all those gyrations are not in reaction to being shot. Was he anticipating getting shot at 271?

Most observers, including members of the Commission, thought there was a material delay in JBC's reaction.I am not sure where you are getting your information but it is not correct.  The wound in the back was 1.5 cm by .8 cm. The bullet was exactly 3 cm long. Dr. Shaw said the bullet made a nice tunnelling wound along the fifth rib and "The fact that the muscle bundles on either side of the fifth rib were not damaged meant that the missile to strip away 10 centimeters of the rib had to follow this rib pretty much along its line of inclination." (4 H 112).  Difficult to imagine a sideways bullet doing that.

The reason they considered the possibility of a delayed reaction by JBC is because the way he said he reacted after being struck. He said he doubled over. The Z-film showed he dipped to his right as well as doubling over. Those reactions occurred in the Z230s, about a half second after his initial reflexive reaction of flipping his arm upward and Z226. Had they noticed that, they wouldn't have had to speculate about a delayed reaction. They probably would have narrowed down the time frame for the single bullet from between Z210 and Z225 to a few frames before Z225, probably in the Z221-222 window.

It is a much bigger challenge to explain how a shot with JBC turned forward could have entered at the back of the armpit and exited under and medial to his right nipple without penetrating the pleural cavity and without damaging any of the muscles around the rib. If the bullet had deflected to the right with him facing forward, it would not have exited where it did.  However, with him turned around sharply to the rear, the right nipple moves to the right of the scapula. So the fifth rib keeping the bullet to the right before passing through the rib (at mid-armpit) keeps the bullet from penetrating the chest wall.  Turn around like that from a sitting position and you can see how the right nipple moves a bit to the right of the scapula and you can see how the fifth rib makes an almost straight path between them.

How about showing us an ACCURATE drawing of JBC's position at Z271 that show how a bullet could enter his back by his right armpit and exit from the right side of his torso. I know I'll be waiting a long time to see that. Like forever.

[Andrew Mason]

How would JBC have known whether JFK was hit by the first shot or the second.

He knew that JFK had moved.  He mentioned that in his hospital bed interview.  He would also know how difficult it is to miss a target the size of the limousine from anywhere in a place as small as Dealey Plaza.

But JBC doesn’t have to provide that evidence.  There at least 21 witnesses plus another 15 witnesses along Elm St . who put the first shot striking JFK. Then there are the 47 witnesses who recalled the last two shots closer together that further nuke the first shot miss.

As for Nellie, she didn't get much of anythingu right.JFK and JBC both felt it at the same time and both reacted at the same time when both of them threw their arms upward in perfect unison at Z226. It's no wonder they had a hard time understanding how Oswald could have fired so rapidly AND so accurately if there had been a second shot miss.

Nellie was no worse a witness than any of the other 20 first shot hit witnesses that you reject.  According to the SBT adherents, all those 80+ witnesses got it completely backward.

This passage shows just how wrong witnesses can be.
" According to Altgens, he snapped the picture "almost simultaneously" with a shot which he is confident was the first one fired."
His photo has been synced to Z255 which isn't even close to the time either the first or second shot was fired. The reality is it was taken 2 seconds after the second shot was fired and hit both men. Altgens statement doesn't even fit your theory that the shots were fired at Z193 and Z271.

Altgens did say “almost simultaneously” “a fraction ahead of my picture” in his testimony to the WC but in his wire story written shortly after the events on 22Nov63 he said he heard a noise like fireworks popping and he snapped a picture of the motorcade “at about that time”. The reverberation may have affected his perception of the exact time of the noise.  The WC was suggesting that if he took his photo at the time of a shot that it was the second shot. 

I can't find the full set of Altgens photos but it would not surprise me if he actually took photo #5 simultaneously with the first shot, but that's speculation. What isn't speculation is that he got it wrong.

His #5 photo was on Houston just after the turn at Main.

His sense of time was a bit peculiar. He thought the shots were quick but estimated the time between first and last to be “less than 30 seconds” (7 H 520).

Clint Hill also got it wrong. He only remembers hearing 2 shots. He remembers the shot that hit JFK in the back thinking that was the first shot. He race forward and saw the head shot at what he estimates was 5 seconds. That's pretty close. It was actually 4.9 seconds between the two shots which struck JFK. So which shot didn't he hear.

In his 6th Floor interview he said oither agents told him that there was a shot just after he jumped off as he was running beside the QM.

An earlier first shot or an intervening shot between the two that hit JFK. It's hard for me to believe he wouldn't have heard an intervening shot between the two which hit JFK.

He may have been concentrating on other things when he was running. 

So you have JFK reacting to getting shot and JBC reacting to the sound of a shot at precisely the same time and in precisely the same manner, even though according to you that even happened 33 frames, almost 2 seconds earlier.

I suggest that the change in JFK’s head and hand beginning at z193-194 was the beginning of his reaction. Because it did not strike bone, he may not have realized what happened and the reaction began with a realization that something was wrong.   It may be that it wasn’t until he tried to breathe about two seconds later that he began struggling to breathe. JBC may have taken about the same time or a bit less to process what he had heard and decide to turn around to see JFK.  So it doesn’t strike me as being unexpected that JBC’s visible reaction began about the time that JFK’s struggling to breathe reaction appeared.

You also choose to ignore immediately after his arm flip, JBC doubled over and dipped to his right, then began twisting dramatically in his seat.

I don’t ignore it at all.  All I am saying is that it is not a reaction to being hit in the back by a bullet. Rather it is a reaction to hearing it and preparing to turn around, which he then does. 

You ignore the fact that no one said that JBC turned around after the second shot and looked rearward in the 3 seconds following the second shot before laying down?  Hint: maybe it was because he didn’t.

And you want to pretend all those gyrations are no in reaction to being shot. Was he anticipating getting shot at 271?

?? He was trying to get a look JFK, He was sitting on a  low, cramped floor-mounted jump seat. It wasn’t easy to turn around especially since JFK had moved to the left.

How about showing us an ACCURATE drawing of JBC's position at Z271 that show how a bullet could enter his back by his right armpit and exit from the right side of his torso. I know I'll be waiting a long time to see that. Like forever.

Without a proper model of a twisted torso the best I can do is ask you to turn around like JBCis at z271 and note the positions of the edge of the right scapula, the fifth rib and the right nipple.

[John Corbett]

He knew that JFK had moved.  He mentioned that in his hospital bed interview.  He would also know how difficult it is to miss a target the size of the limousine from anywhere in a place as small as Dealey Plaza.

But JBC doesn’t have to provide that evidence.  There at least 21 witnesses plus another 15 witnesses along Elm St . who put the first shot striking JFK. Then there are the 47 witnesses who recalled the last two shots closer together that further nuke the first shot miss.

A whole lot of so-and-so-said evidence which is all you've got. It's not at all compelling.

Nellie was no worse a witness than any of the other 20 first shot hit witnesses that you reject.  According to the SBT adherents, all those 80+ witnesses got it completely backward.
Altens did say “almost simultaneously” “a fraction ahead of my picture” in his testimony to the WC but in his wire story written shortly after the events on 22Nov63 he said he heard a noise like fireworks popping and he snapped a picture of the motorcade “at about that time”. The reverberation may have affected his perception of the exact time of the noise.  The WC was suggesting that if he took his photo at the time of a shot that it was the second shot. 
His #5 photo was on Houston just after the turn at Main.

Now you have to make excuses for why one of your witnesses got it so wrong. In what universe is a 2 second difference almost simultaneous.

His sense of time was a bit peculiar. He thought the shots were quick but estimated the time between first and last to be “less than 30 seconds” (7 H 520).

WOW. Less than 30 seconds. He really zeroed in on it.

In his 6th Floor interview he said oither agents told him that there was a shot just after he jumped off as he was running beside the QM.
He may have been concentrating on other things when he was running.

The other agents were wrong. Being a SS agent doesn't endow somebody with super powers of perception. They are as prone to error as any other witness.

 
I suggest that the change in JFK’s head and hand beginning at z193-194 was the beginning of his reaction.

Suggest all you want. Nobody is buying it.

Because it did not strike bone, he may not have realized what happened and the reaction began with a realization that something was wrong.   It may be that it wasn’t until he tried to breathe about two seconds later that he began struggling to breathe. JBC may have taken about the same time or a bit less to process what he had heard and decide to turn around to see JFK.  So it doesn’t strike me as being unexpected that JBC’s visible reaction began about the time that JFK’s struggling to breathe reaction appeared.

Now you are trying to rationalize. Your theory of what happened isn't the least bit plausible from beginning to end.

I don’t ignore it at all.  All I am saying is that it is not a reaction to being hit in the back by a bullet. Rather it is a reaction to hearing it and preparing to turn around, which he then does.

Is that what you have convinced yourself of over all these years?

You ignore the fact that no one said that JBC turned around after the second shot and looked rearward in the 3 seconds following the second shot before laying down?  Hint: maybe it was because he didn’t.

Are you serious? Who needs to be told that is what happened. We can see it with our own eyes. Look at the damn Z271 frame. JBC is looking backward in the direction of Oswald. No way Oswald could shoot him in the back at that frame. It's no wonder you're so mixed up because you base all your beliefs on what people have said instead of looking at the evidence for yourself. The Z-film allows us all to be witnesses to the assassination but you choose to ignore what it is showing us because you want to believe your cockamamie theory instead.

?? He was trying to get a look JFK, He was sitting on a  low, cramped floor-mounted jump seat. It wasn’t easy to turn around especially since JFK had moved to the left.Without a proper model of a twisted torso the best I can do is ask you to turn around like JBCis at z271 and note the positions of the edge of the right scapula, the fifth rib and the right nipple.

I did. There's no way for someone I was facing could shoot me in the back. That shoots down your silly theory of JBC being shot at Z271.

[Andrew Mason]

A whole lot of so-and-so-said evidence which is all you've got. It's not at all compelling.Now you have to make excuses for why one of your witnesses got it so wrong. In what universe is a 2 second difference almost simultaneous.

I find it quite a bit more compelling than a missed first shot for which there are not only zero witnesses but over 80 witnesses who say it didn't happen.  You will never find a real case where this has occurred.( And I am not even talking about the improbability of someone deciding to shoot when the target is moving across the field of view after piling boxes for a shot down the street and then missing not only the target but the entire 7 by 21 foot car at 160 feet;  and I will overlook the complete absence of a mark in whatever it was supposed to have hit.)

.

The other agents were wrong. Being a SS agent doesn't endow somebody with super powers of perception. They are as prone to error as any other witness.Suggest all you want.

On the off-chance you  might want to view the discussion of the second shot, it begins at around the 33 minute mark:

I did. There's no way for someone I was facing could shoot me in the back. That shoots down your silly theory of JBC being shot at Z271.

The bullet entered at the edge of the right scapula which is the rear border of the armpit and passed throught the fifth rib at the middle of the armpit.  Explain how that happened if he wasn't turned sharply right as Nellie, Gayle Newman and 47 earwitnesses said he was.

[John Mytton]

If the WC had the benefit of modern technology and more time to look at blow ups of the Z-frames.  they might have figured out that JFK's right hand was still moving down at Z225 and didn't start upward until Z226, the same frame JBC's arm started up. Coincidence? Hardly.Another example of the WC missing clues because they lacked the technology to do a frame-by-frame study with magnified frames. What they did was create still photos of the magnified frames but that didn't allow them to see the subtle changes from frame to frame like the bulging of JBC's jacket or JFK's hand still moving downward at Z225.

 

The amount of intellectual dishonesty when analysing the SBF is staggering!

1. Connally's jacket is clearly bulging. I've read a lot of denial that suggests this bulge is a shadow?? or at this precise point in time it was a sudden gust of wind which by chance didn't affect anything else? Also note Connally's left shoulder is suddenly lifting as his body is pivoting as he is struck!



2, Kennedy's right hand is at first moving downwards.



3. Then in a fraction of a second, both men are reacting simultaneously and it isn't a coincidence that Connally's right hand, the one that was hit is displaying an involuntary pain reaction.



Here's Gordon Ramsey displaying a similar virtually instantaneous involuntary pain reaction.



JohnM

[John Mytton]

Even more evidence.

Here's a recreation of Z222 with the Queen Mary(which was a mistake) and at first I thought this makes the SBF kind of impossible because Connally is obviously too high but thankfully they took two photos and the other was from Zapruder's position and when you compare Zapruder's view with the recreation view it's clear that in the actual Limo, the jump seat is much lower which makes the SBF a no brainer!





JohnM