Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272

[Andrew Mason]

Yes, we agree Oswald was the lone shooter which leaves us with the conclusion that the witnesses who said they heard two shots at the end that were almost right on top of each other with almost no time between them were wrong. They didn't hear two shots together at the end, They might have heard two sounds from the same shot, but they didn't hear two shots.

You should let Bob Jackson know that he didn’t hear what he still says he heard, two shots closer together (at 1:40):

It would be a shame for him not to know the real truth, you being a much better judge of the shot spacing after seeing silent film than he is after actually hearing the shots.

Not a true statement

So who was watching JFK and said he continued to wave and smile after the first shot?  If the first shot was before z164 and they were watching JFK, that is how they would have seen him react.

Reports are often wrong. The ones that don't fit a first shot before Z186 are definitely wrong.

How do you know that reports are often wrong? Are you saying the the studies cited by Loftus showing 98% completeness and accuracy scores for witness recollection of the most salient details were faked? Or are you just going by your spidey senses about witnesses?

You actually believe that nonsense? The explanation for the condition of CE399 has been known for years. The nose of the bullet was not smashed because it never hit hard bone.

So the less structurally strong base or sides smashed the bone did not get smashed? You might think it is not a problem but no one has ever duplicated anything like just JBC’s wrist damage with a missile looking anything like CE399.

Yes, there is no physical evidence of where the missed shot hit nor should we expect there to be. No one was looking for evidence of a missed shot because the initial belief was that JFK and JBC were hit by 3 separate shots with no misses. The SBT wasn't developed until months later.

The FBI inspected the street and found no evidence of a bullet strike except on the curb near where Tague was standing.

It has never been established which shot cause Tague's wound. It's an open question.

Open to you, maybe.  Not to Tague. 

The evidence isn't wrong. It's the myths that have grown out of people's misunderstanding of the evidence that are wrong.

So the 47 or so who recalled the last two shots closer together weren’t wrong, just misunderstood? The 21 who recalled JFK react to the firsr shot weren’t wrong, just misunderstood?

[John Corbett]

You should let Bob Jackson know that he didn’t hear what he still says he heard, two shots closer together (at 1:40):

It would be a shame for him not to know the real truth, you being a much better judge of the shot spacing after seeing silent film than he is after actually hearing the shots.
So who was watching JFK and said he continued to wave and smile after the first shot?  If the first shot was before z164 and they were watching JFK, that is how they would have seen him react.

I'd  be glad to say it to his face if he is still alive. Most of the people in that motorcade are not.

How do you know that reports are often wrong?

Because I've seen the early reports. At various times, Walter Cronkite reported the rifle was a Winchester, a British rifle, and a Japanese rifle. It was reported a Secret Service agent had been killed, and a young couple had been arrested.

Following the Reagan shooting, it was reported that Reagan hadn't been hit and that Jim Brady was killled.

Are you saying the the studies cited by Loftus showing 98% completeness and accuracy scores for witness recollection of the most salient details were faked? Or are you just going by your spidey senses about witnesses?

I've seen plenty of examples of witnesses getting salient details wrong. A large group of people said all the shots came from the GK and another group said all the shots came from the TSBD. They can't both be right. Is that salient enough for you.

So the less structurally strong base or sides smashed the bone did not get smashed? You might think it is not a problem but no one has ever duplicated anything like just JBC’s wrist damage with a missile looking anything like CE399.

Name one shooting since the invention of the firearm that has ever been duplicated. You really should become a CT because you are using all their tired old debunked arguments.

The FBI inspected the street and found no evidence of a bullet strike except on the curb near where Tague was standing.
Open to you, maybe.  Not to Tague. 
So the 47 or so who recalled the last two shots closer together weren’t wrong, just misunderstood? The 21 who recalled JFK react to the firsr shot weren’t wrong, just misunderstood?

No, they were all wrong.

[Zeon Mason]

Thanks to both LNs JohnC and AndrewM for exposing the main problem with the 3 shot theory as proposed by the WC.

The conventional WC theory for 3 shots is that the 1st shot missed the entire limo and the 2nd shot is the SBT at Z224 that went thru both men and thru JC’s wrist bone and came out looking like CE 399. 3rd shot is Z312-Z313 the head shot.

The conventional LN theory SEEMS to work except that the 1….2..3 shot pattern heard by a super majority  of witnesses (2/3rds to 3/4ths depending how witness are counted) requires that the jury must believe that those majority of witnesses are wrong. The jury must accept CE 399 as evidence even though the witnesses who first saw the bullet would not verify the bullet. A report by FBI agent Odum that the bullet WAS verified by the 1st witness who found it, being denied by Odum 50 years later , must be due to Odum just being old and not remembering the report.

So AndrewM the alternative LN tries to solve this 1…2.3 patten by proposing the 1st shot was  at Z-190,  and was a hit , rather than a miss and that the movements of JFK and JC in sync at z224-z227 are not from being hit by a single bullet at that instant.
Instead the jury is told that the reaction of JFK at Z224 is a delayed response to the Z190 bullet going thru JFK which then hit JC in just his left thigh , bypassing JCs entire upper body. JC moving forward as seen at Z225-z227 and then JC turning back with a painful look on his face is NOT an expression of pain, rather it’s simply a delayed reaction to hearing a shot at Z190. JC’s facial expression is expressing fear rather than pain.

The jury is asked to accept that JCs upper body / shoulder angle at Z190-Z193 far more turned rightward than 45 degrees to the right than what appears in the actual Z film. In other words, you cannot trust what you see in the Z film with just your eyes alone. Measuring overlays or computer modeling by an expert such as Dale Myers is not offered however by AndrewM to prove the proposed twisted position of JC at Z190-Z193.

The 2nd shot proposed by AndrewM. at Z 270 approx is more problematic than the Z 190 shot.Here the jury must believe the entry /exit bullet path thru JCs upper body is aligned with a TSBD 6th floor trajectory even though JCs upper body/shoulders appears in Z 270-z273 frames to be nearly rotated 180 looking back at JFK. As JC leans back , this could possibly be movement “forward” indicative of being struck.  by the Z270 bullet traveling at 2000 ft/sec. The jury should accept this because AndrewMs suggests his edited chopped off Z/film sequence from Z-270-Z280 depicts possibly forward movement and that a portion of JCs white shirt cuff damaged is reason to believe his right wrist was tangentially knicked only on the upper part of the wrist.

Finally , the jury must believe that as JC is falling back into his wife’s lap after the Z270 shot and there is an even more pronounced look on his face indicating pain, that even though he’s had one wound in the thigh and now a second wound going thru his upper body and hitting his wrist, that he is NOT in pain, rather it is just more “fear”.

So I have to congratulate these 2 remarkable LNs JohnC and AndrewM. for demonstrating to me that LNs  are willing to go just about as far  as CTs are in making excuses for a flawed theory they propose or for the conventional WC theory even if it means suggesting that a super majority of witnesses  did not hear what they thought they heard.

[Tom Graves]

[...]

You need to explain why some witnesses heard three evenly spaced shots.

[John Corbett]

Thanks to both LNs JohnC and AndrewM for exposing the main problem with the 3 shot theory as proposed by the WC.

The conventional WC theory for 3 shots is that the 1st shot missed the entire limo and the 2nd shot is the SBT at Z224 that went thru both men and thru JC’s wrist bone and came out looking like CE 399. 3rd shot is Z312-Z313 the head shot.

The conventional LN theory SEEMS to work except that the 1….2..3 shot pattern heard by a super majority  of witnesses (2/3rds to 3/4ths depending how witness are counted) requires that the jury must believe that those majority of witnesses are wrong. The jury must accept CE 399 as evidence even though the witnesses who first saw the bullet would not verify the bullet. A report by FBI agent Odum that the bullet WAS verified by the 1st witness who found it, being denied by Odum 50 years later , must be due to Odum just being old and not remembering the report.

So AndrewM the alternative LN tries to solve this 1…2.3 patten by proposing the 1st shot was  at Z-190,  and was a hit , rather than a miss and that the movements of JFK and JC in sync at z224-z227 are not from being hit by a single bullet at that instant.
Instead the jury is told that the reaction of JFK at Z224 is a delayed response to the Z190 bullet going thru JFK which then hit JC in just his left thigh , bypassing JCs entire upper body. JC moving forward as seen at Z225-z227 and then JC turning back with a painful look on his face is NOT an expression of pain, rather it’s simply a delayed reaction to hearing a shot at Z190. JC’s facial expression is expressing fear rather than pain.

The jury is asked to accept that JCs upper body / shoulder angle at Z190-Z193 far more turned rightward than 45 degrees to the right than what appears in the actual Z film. In other words, you cannot trust what you see in the Z film with just your eyes alone. Measuring overlays or computer modeling by an expert such as Dale Myers is not offered however by AndrewM to prove the proposed twisted position of JC at Z190-Z193.

The 2nd shot proposed by AndrewM. at Z 270 approx is more problematic than the Z 190 shot.Here the jury must believe the entry /exit bullet path thru JCs upper body is aligned with a TSBD 6th floor trajectory even though JCs upper body/shoulders appears in Z 270-z273 frames to be nearly rotated 180 looking back at JFK. As JC leans back , this could possibly be movement “forward” indicative of being struck.  by the Z270 bullet traveling at 2000 ft/sec. The jury should accept this because AndrewMs suggests his edited chopped off Z/film sequence from Z-270-Z280 depicts possibly forward movement and that a portion of JCs white shirt cuff damaged is reason to believe his right wrist was tangentially knicked only on the upper part of the wrist.

Finally , the jury must believe that as JC is falling back into his wife’s lap after the Z270 shot and there is an even more pronounced look on his face indicating pain, that even though he’s had one wound in the thigh and now a second wound going thru his upper body and hitting his wrist, that he is NOT in pain, rather it is just more “fear”.

So I have to congratulate these 2 remarkable LNs JohnC and AndrewM. for demonstrating to me that LNs  are willing to go just about as far  as CTs are in making excuses for a flawed theory they propose or for the conventional WC theory even if it means suggesting that a super majority of witnesses  did not hear what they thought they heard.

There is nothing flawed with the WC's findings and there are no problems with the scenario in which the first shot missed JFK, the second shot went through both JFK and JBC, and the third shot was the kill shot. It is not a problem that a majority of the witnesses said the last two shots were closer together because we know a majority of the witnesses can be wrong. A majority of the witnesses said all the shots came from the GK and we know that is wrong. If they can be wrong about that they can be wrong about the spacing of the shots. Both are earwitness accounts. If they can be wrong about one they can be wrong about both. The Z-film is still, and always will be, the best indicator of what happened. The three shot scenario with a first shot miss and a second shot single bullet fits perfectly with what the Z-film shows. There is no definitive proof as to when the first shot was fired but whether one chooses to believe it was fired shortly before we see JBC start to turn to his right or was fired before Zapruder resumed filming, the SBT works and so do the parameters the WC gave us back in 1964.

[Michael Capasse]

It is not a problem that a majority of the witnesses said the last two shots were closer together because we know a majority of the witnesses can be wrong.

Garbage.
that has been the nutter's problem for 60+ years.

[John Corbett]

Garbage.
that has been the nutter's problem for 60+ years.

Nutter's know how to weigh evidence and determine what is probative and what is not. Eye and earwitness testimony that conflicts with what we see in the Z-film is not at all probative.