JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272
John Corbett:
--- Quote from: Mitch Todd on April 18, 2026, 06:24:24 PM ---
BTW, there is one coincidence involving CE399 that I find provocative, and have never seen discussed. Many skeptics say that CE399 was found not on Connally's stretcher, but on a different stretcher that carried a young boy named Ronnie Fuller back to minor surgery to have a nasty cut sewn up. This stretcher was piloted through the Parkland ER suite by a nurse's aide named Rosa Majors. But that's not the only role she played that day. Before Fuller needed help, Majors was in Trauma Room 2 while the medical staff was assessing Connally's wounds. Her job there was to take possession of Connally's clothing, removing and collecting Connally's personal effects therefrom. That would have put her in prime contention of finding a bullet that had fallen from the wound in Connally's thigh. And if CE399 was indeed found on Fuller's stretcher, and was deliberately placed on it, then she becomes a prime suspect in placing there.
--- End quote ---
The confusion started with Tomlinson being unsure which stretcher CE399 was on. Recently SS Agent Paul Landis further muddied the waters with his statement that he found a bullet on the seat of the limo and put it in his pocket. He later placed it on a stretcher. It seems plausible to me that the bullet that made the shallow entry into JBC's thing before popping out could end up on his car seat. Also plausible Landis would put it in his pocket. It seems very odd to me that he would just casually put the bullet down on a stretcher. I can understand the Landis was probably not involved in many if any crime scene investigations but common sense should have told him that was a key piece of evidence that needed to be secured. I don't know if we can ever be sure exactly where CE399 ended up but the important this is we know where it came from, Oswald's rifle.
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: John Corbett on April 18, 2026, 12:57:42 PM ---The Z-film puts it about 1.5 seconds later. I'm going with that.
--- End quote ---
Do you mean your interpretation of the zfilm or what is unequivocally displayed in the zfilm?
--- Quote ---JBC's right side was directly in line with the exit wound in JFK's throat. You make the same mistake the CTs do in assuming JBC was seated directly in front of JFK.
--- End quote ---
No. I put JBC to the left of JFK by 10-20 cm or 4-8 inches which is what Itek Corp. determined:
The problem is that the wound in JBC’s back was 20 cm right of JBC’s midline putting the back wound directly in front of JFK’s midline but no farther left:
At z220 the angle from the SN to the car direction was at least 12 degrees. A bullet through JFK exiting a tad left of his midline (to the left side of the tie knot) on a right to left angle of 12 degrees would have traveled farther left before reaching JBC. With the plane of JBC’s back being at least 24 inches from JFK’s exit wound, this means the bullet had to have gone left another 24tan12=5.1 inches before striking JBC. That puts it 5.1 inches left of where the wound was. And that is assuming the maximum offset of the two men.
--- Quote ---It would require a magic bullet for the bullet exiting JFK's throat to hit JBC on his left side.
--- End quote ---
At z193 the angle through JFK was about 16 degrees:
So the bullet would have passed about 7 inches farther left, ie. 1 inch left of JBC’s spine. If JBC was a few inches farther ahead or less than 6 inches (4 is within the Itek margin) left of JFK, it could have passed 3-4 inches left of JBC’s spine. With JBC turned right as he was at z193 it would have missed the back entirely. One can easily see how the bullet through JFK goes to JBC’s left side in the Secret Service film recreation:
. No magic required!
John Corbett:
--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on April 19, 2026, 03:46:31 AM ---Do you mean your interpretation of the zfilm or what is unequivocally displayed in the zfilm?
--- End quote ---
I mean my observation that JBC's jacket suddenly bulged out at Z224 and two frames later both JFK and JBC both suddenly flipped their arms upward in perfect unison. After which JFK is seen leaning forward and to his left with his hands up around his throat and JBC doubles over and dips to his right, gyrates in his seat for a few more seconds before collapsing into Nellie's lap. Yeah, that interpretation. So what's your interpretation of that sequence?
--- Quote ---No. I put JBC to the left of JFK by 10-20 cm or 4-8 inches which is what Itek Corp. determined:
--- End quote ---
It was a closer to 8. David Powers was filming from the QM directly behind the JFK limo. We can see the left side of JBC's torso. The jump seat was 6 inches inboard from the side of the car and JBC would likely have been centered in that seat, not on the right side of it. JFK was as far right as he could be. One of the films showing the limo starting up at Love Field shows JFK's arm was hanging down the side of the car.
--- Quote ---
The problem is that the wound in JBC’s back was 20 cm right of JBC’s midline putting the back wound directly in front of JFK’s midline but no farther left:
--- End quote ---
You're forgetting that JBC had rotated his shoulders to the right which changes the geometry and moves the entry point on his back a few inches to the left.
--- Quote ---
At z220 the angle from the SN to the car direction was at least 12 degrees. A bullet through JFK exiting a tad left of his midline (to the left side of the tie knot) on a right to left angle of 12 degrees would have traveled farther left before reaching JBC. With the plane of JBC’s back being at least 24 inches from JFK’s exit wound, this means the bullet had to have gone left another 24tan12=5.1 inches before striking JBC. That puts it 5.1 inches left of where the wound was. And that is assuming the maximum offset of the two men.
At z193 the angle through JFK was about 16 degrees:
--- End quote ---
Again, you fail to factor in JBC's torso rotation.
--- Quote ---
So the bullet would have passed about 7 inches farther left, ie. 1 inch left of JBC’s spine. If JBC was a few inches farther ahead or less than 6 inches (4 is within the Itek margin) left of JFK, it could have passed 3-4 inches left of JBC’s spine. With JBC turned right as he was at z193 it would have missed the back entirely. One can easily see how the bullet through JFK goes to JBC’s left side in the Secret Service film recreation:
. No magic required!
--- End quote ---
Faulty premises lead to faulty conclusions. I find Dale Myers virtual 3D rendition far more impressive than your chicken scratches. His simulation shows the wounds line up perfectly for a shot from the sniper's nest.
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: John Corbett on April 19, 2026, 01:01:21 PM ---I mean my observation that JBC's jacket suddenly bulged out at Z224 and two frames later both JFK and JBC both suddenly flipped their arms upward in perfect unison. After which JFK is seen leaning forward and to his left with his hands up around his throat and JBC doubles over and dips to his right, gyrates in his seat for a few more seconds before collapsing into Nellie's lap. Yeah, that interpretation. So what's your interpretation of that sequence?
--- End quote ---
The film doesn’t tell you what is happening, other than JFK is reacting to his neck wound. I can’t tell what JBC is reacting to without referring to other evidence. Nellie, and 20 others said that JFK reacted like that to the first shot and the evidence is pretty consistent that JBC was hit in the back on the second shot. JBC said he turned around after the first shot to look at JFK. Nellie said she did not look in the back seat after the second shot. She is looking at JFK up to z265. Altgens said his z255 #6 photo was taken after the first and before any other shots. Hickey said he was looking at JFK when the second and third shots occurred. He is facing rearward at z255.
An the shot pattern explicitly recalled by over 40 people says there was only one shot to that point.
So I suggest that JBC is reacting the way he said he reacted after hearing the first shot.
--- Quote ---It was a closer to 8.
--- End quote ---
So you are in a better position than Itek to opine on this?
--- Quote ---David Powers was filming from the QM directly behind the JFK limo. We can see the left side of JBC's torso. The jump seat was 6 inches inboard from the side of the car and JBC would likely have been centered in that seat, not on the right side of it.
--- End quote ---
The scale drawing of the car shows the seat to be 2.5 inches inboard:
But even 6 inches is not enough. JFK’s spine had to have been 8 inches from the inside if he had his ribs pressed against the side, which he didn’t (his right arm its extended out from his shoulder). That would put JBC’s back wound about an inch right of JFK’s midline. It needs to be at least 6 inches farther left because of the right to left path.
--- Quote ---You're forgetting that JBC had rotated his shoulders to the right which changes the geometry and moves the entry point on his back a few inches to the left. Again, you fail to factor in JBC's torso rotation.
--- End quote ---
He doesn’t look rotated at z224. Maybe 30 degrees at most. That moves it left by 8(1-cos30)=8(.134)=1.1 inches.
--- Quote ---Faulty premises lead to faulty conclusions. I find Dale Myers virtual 3D rendition far more impressive than your chicken scratches. His simulation shows the wounds line up perfectly for a shot from the sniper's nest.
--- End quote ---
Myers refuses to disclose his data, such as the angle from the SN that he uses, or the distance of JFK’s exit wound from the back wound of JBC. So it is not possible to really say if it is accurate. Good graphics are only worth that data they are based on.
John Corbett:
--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on April 19, 2026, 05:36:39 PM ---The film doesn’t tell you what is happening, other than JFK is reacting to his neck wound.
--- End quote ---
No, it doesn't tell YOU what is happening. I guess that's the reason you developed a theory that is incompatible with the film
--- Quote ---I can’t tell what JBC is reacting to without referring to other evidence.
--- End quote ---
I'm all for that. JBC's sworn testimony is evidence. I don't put complete faith in eye and earwitnesses unless they can be corroborated. JBC said he turned and looked over his right shoulder in reaction to a shot that sounded to him came from the right rear and from an elevated position. We see JBC start to turn to look over his right shoulder beginning at Z164. That's corroboration. That tells us the shot came before Z164.
--- Quote ---Nellie, and 20 others said that JFK reacted like that to the first shot and the evidence is pretty consistent that JBC was hit in the back on the second shot. JBC said he turned around after the first shot to look at JFK. Nellie said she did not look in the back seat after the second shot. She is looking at JFK up to z265. Altgens said his z255 #6 photo was taken after the first and before any other shots. Hickey said he was looking at JFK when the second and third shots occurred. He is facing rearward at z255.
--- End quote ---
You continue to rely on uncorroborated witnesses. Nothing corroborates Altgens recollection. Altgens was focused on his job which was getting photos of the motorcade as it started down Elm St. His famous photos is #6. That means he took 5 more before that. Do you really expect him to remember after which of those photos he heard the first shot, assuming he even heard the first shot and recognized it for what it was. Many people in DP did not. Nellie might be one of the worst witnesses available. Not only is she not corroborated by the Z-film. Almost everything she said is refuted by it.
--- Quote ---
An the shot pattern explicitly recalled by over 40 people says there was only one shot to that point.
--- End quote ---
40 people? Out of how many that were in Dealey Plaza that day.
--- Quote ---
So I suggest that JBC is reacting the way he said he reacted after hearing the first shot.
--- End quote ---
He started his reaction at Z164. The first shot came before that unless you want to argue he was anticipating the first shot.
--- Quote ---So you are in a better position than Itek to opine on this? The scale drawing of the car shows the seat to be 2.5 inches inboard:
--- End quote ---
If that is Itek's diagram you posted, they show JBC directly in front of JFK. No wonder their analysis if FUBAR. I will neither agree nor disagree as to whether the seat was 2.5 inches inboard but you have to do more than that to figure out how far inboard JBC was. He would likely have been seated in the center of the seat so you have to add half the width of the seat to the 2.5 inches to determine how far inboard his spine would have been. They show the seat to be 20.5 inches wide so the center of that seat would be (20.5/2) +2.5 = 13 which puts JBC's spine 13 inches inboard from the side of the car.
What I do know is that David Powers was filming from directly behind JFK and JBC and throughout the motorcade, the left half of JBC's head and torso are visible in front of JFK. That tells me he was about a half a body width inside JFK. At the time of the SBT, his shoulders were rotated to his right which would bring the point of entry under his right armpit even further to the left.
Here is a still from David Powers film taken from the QM. As you can see, most of JBC's head is visible. It looks clear to me that JBC's right armpit would be to the left of JFK's centerline and he isn't even rotated to the right as he was when the single bullet struck.
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/12/23/10/2699800/7/1200x0.jpg
--- Quote ---
But even 6 inches is not enough. JFK’s spine had to have been 8 inches from the inside if he had his ribs pressed against the side, which he didn’t (his right arm its extended out from his shoulder).
--- End quote ---
WRONG. His upper arm is almost vertical and his elbow rests on the side of the car. JFK was as far right as he could go. This footage of the limo as it is starting out at Love Field shows the tip of JFK's elbow is actually outside the car at the 24:22 mark of the video.
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=video+jfk%27s+limo+leaving+love+field&&mid=9645ED65333C0BECEC009645ED65333C0BECEC00&churl=https%3a%2f%2fwww.youtube.com%2fchannel%2fUCDBAOsRNqsx5kz-w4Im7M5A&FORM=VAMGZC
--- Quote ---
That would put JBC’s back wound about an inch right of JFK’s midline. It needs to be at least 6 inches farther left because of the right to left path. He doesn’t look rotated at z224. Maybe 30 degrees at most. That moves it left by 8(1-cos30)=8(.134)=1.1 inches.
Myers refuses to disclose his data, such as the angle from the SN that he uses, or the distance of JFK’s exit wound from the back wound of JBC. So it is not possible to really say if it is accurate. Good graphics are only worth that data they are based on.
--- End quote ---
Well once again you have proven that if you start with faulty premises, you will reach faulty conclusions.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version