JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate

Gov. John Connally Grips His White Stetson Hat at Z-272

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John Corbett:

--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on April 17, 2026, 11:32:19 PM ---This is a physics issue. Lungs expand to draw air into the lungs because they are in a sealed low pressure pleural cavity. If the seal is breached and air is allowed to flow into the pleural cavity, the lung will collapse. If there is a hole from the back to the pleural cavity and a hole from the front, there are two pathways for the pleural cavity to draw air. There is nothing obstructing the back/right armpit prior to about z280.  That's not forensic science. That is you interpreting what you think has happened in equivocal parts of the zfilm.

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Well now we have the layman's opinion on the medical evidence.
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Not even the WC went as far as to say they could tell when the first two shots occurred. In fact, they had a whole section that explained all the various possibilities that they considered.
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The WC had a little bit more than 6 months to study the Z-film. We have had 6 decades to study it and the advantage of modern enhancement technology to breakdown the Z-film. I have no doubt that the WC would have come to the same conclusions had they had these same advantages, but they didn't so the best they could do was give us parameters. Those parameters have proven to be valid. They said JFK was hit twice by two bullets fired 4.8 and 5.6 seconds apart. That is correct. It was actually about 4.9 seconds. They told us the single bullet was fired between Z210 and Z225. That is also correct. I feel quite confident in saying it was fired at or about Z220, striking at or about Z222. They said the missed shot could have been the first, second, or third shot. That is true. It was the first shot.

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Studies have shown (Loftus, Eyewitness Testimony) that witnesses are quite accurate and complete in recalling details that more than 50% of the witnesses recalled. For details that were not as easily noticed, they are still likely to be more than 50% accurate and complete.  In this case, many people recalled three shots, that JFK reacted to the first and that the last two were close together.  Here is the chart from Loftus, Ch. 3 (p. 27):

Maybe Charles Brehm and JFK did not react before z193 because there had not been a shot. That would fit with Betzner, Croft, Linda Willis, Phil Willis, Mary Woodward and another dozen or so witnesses along Elm St.

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I guess JFK suddenly raising hsi hand up in front of his throat beginning at Z226 was just a mirage.

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And maybe Clint Hill did react to the first shot. He said he did.

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He thought he did.

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He said he stepped off the car after hearing the first shot and seeing the President react.

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he thought he heard the first shot. He actually heard and reacted to the second shot. That's why he only heard one more shot, the head shot, after he realized JFK had been hit.

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He said later during an interview at the Sixth Floor Museum that he was told by others in the car that the second shot happened after he leapt off the running board but he did not hear it, possibly because he was along side of the QM engine.

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So you're willing to buy they he did't hear the second shot but you can't accept the idea he didn't hear the first shot. I find it far more probable that he didn't hear the first shot because of the roar of the four escort motorcycles accelerating out of the sharp turn onto Elm St. that that he didn't hear the second shot because the QM engine roar. Which of those two choices do you think would produce the most noise?
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He said he heard the third shot and saw its effects.  So, according to Hill, he recalled the first and last shots.Witnesses are most often corroborated by other independent witnesses.
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I find forensic evidence to be far more compelling corroboration than other fallible witnesses.

--- Quote ---If 20 people independently recalled JFK reacting to the first shot, you might want to explain the probability that they independently recalled that and independently failed to see JFK continue to smile and wave for several seconds...

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Probably similar to the probability that a large group of witnesses got the source of the shots wrong. One large group said all the shots came from the direction of the GK and a slightly smaller group said all the shots came from the direction of the TSBD. We know both groups can't be right. We could just go with the larger group that said the shots came from the GK or we can use the forensic evidence to determine which group got it right. If we apply that methodology toe the Z-film, the witnesses who said JFK and JBC were both hit by the second shot are corroborated. We see JBC reacting to the sound of the first shot at Z-164  that he was adamant did not hit him.  We see JBC and JFK simultaneously and suddenly flipping the hands upward at Z226. Are we supposed to believe that sudden upward arm movement is just a coincidence?

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So why do you think JBC did not turn his head rearward if he was trying to look at JFK?  He never turns to face the rear. I can't find anywhere before z230 where he attempts to look over his shoulder.  That requires turning one's face relative to one's shoulders. I can turn my head more than 90 degrees.  He didn't try to turn it at all relative to his shoulders.
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By Z230 he had already been hit and reacted to the bullet strike. I seriously doubt he was still trying to see if JFK had been hit. You are wrong that he never faced the rear. Which way is he facing in this frame:

https://assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z268.jpg

He was turned enough that he could have seen JFK but had no memory of that because he was reacting to his own devastatating wounds.

John Corbett:

--- Quote from: Zeon Mason on April 18, 2026, 12:31:39 AM ---That 6.6 secs estimate is for the Z190-Z313 shots in the hypothetical 3 shot sequence that Andrew proposes. If the avg Z- film speed is 18.5 frames/sec and 313-190=123 frames then 123/18.5=6.649 secs.

There was ONE of the CBS time trial shooters ( an OLD guy like me ) who managed to score 3 hits on the easy to see red human shape on a large black square that was moving on a white track clearly visible and where no tree was an obstacle and where the shooter could set up with rifle pointing out the window before the target started moving. And he managed to score 3 hits in about 5.6 seconds on his first attempt.

So there’s that LOL.

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I believe the average for the Z-film was 18.3 fps, but let's not quibble.

I have no idea why CBS tried to shoehorn the shooting into a 5.6 second time frame because that was never a conclusion of the WC. They allowed for that possibility but never said that's what happened. In short, CBS screwed the pooch when they did that exercise.

Andrew Mason:

--- Quote from: Zeon Mason on April 17, 2026, 09:33:53 PM ---In Andrew’s Z190 1st shot theory, which shot  is CE 399?

And what’s the likely path of z190 shot after it exited JFKs throat?


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CE399 was the first bullet that struck JFK when he was between the lamp post and Thornton sign.  I put it at or just before z193, after which JFK is seen to turn forward. This bullet passed through JFK’s neck without encountering anything capable of changing its direction.  Where it went after that is a matter of placing both men in positions seen in the zfilm at z190-193 and seeing where a straight line points. It could not have passed to the far right side of Connnally at that point. So the only possibility would seem to be that it caused a wound to JBC on his left side.


--- Quote ---My best guess would be that since  the Z190 bullet trajectory is more acute than a Z223 shot  trajectory   that the bullet after exiting JFK throat would have gone thru the front seat just to the left of Kellerman and buried into the front dash board.
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It was on a downward slope at z190:


It doesn’t look like it would have struck the dashboard.



--- Quote ---Not saying I’m agreeing with this Z190 1st shot idea but at least it’s consistent with 3 shots fired in about 6.6 secs which is close together as most witness heard and a fair match to Harold Norman’s spacing in his boom click  click sequence.

And if I’m remembering  right, Andrew has the 2nd shot at about Z285? And that shot then must be the one That went thru JCs wrist bone and then into his left thigh yes?

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At z285 Connally is already falling back and Greer is turned around, which he said he did at the time of the second shot. I suggest the shot was at z271-272.  His forward motion/recoil begins at z271-272.  The hair on JFK’s right side flies up at z273-276 (Hickey observed this on the second shot).


--- Quote ---Yet it looks like to me that JC has already lifted up the hat suddenly by Z230 which is about 2.5 secs BEFORE Z285. If the hat is up in his right hand at Z285, not sure how the shot at Z285 which strikes him in the left thigh would  have gone thru the wrist?

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The thigh wound did not occur on the second shot. JBC never felt the thigh wound.

John Corbett:

--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on April 18, 2026, 01:05:20 AM ---CE399 was the first bullet that struck JFK when he was between the lamp post and Thornton sign. I put it at or just before z193, after which JFK is seen to turn forward.

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The Z-film puts it about 1.5 seconds later. I'm going with that.

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 This bullet passed through JFK’s neck without encountering anything capable of changing its direction.  Where it went after that is a matter of placing both men in positions seen in the zfilm at z190-193 and seeing where a straight line points. It could not have passed to the far right side of Connnally at that point. So the only possibility would seem to be that it caused a wound to JBC on his left side.
It was on a downward slope at z190:


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JBC's right side was directly in line with the exit wound in JFK's throat. You make the same mistake the CTs do in assuming JBC was seated directly in front of JFK. It would require a magic bullet for the bullet exiting JFK's throat to hit JBC on his left side.

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It doesn’t look like it would have struck the dashboard.

At z285 Connally is already falling back and Greer is turned around, which he said he did at the time of the second shot. I suggest the shot was at z271-272.  His forward motion/recoil begins at z271-272.  The hair on JFK’s right side flies up at z273-276 (Hickey observed this on the second shot).
The thigh wound did not occur on the second shot. JBC never felt the thigh wound.

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You keep trying to drive a square peg into a round hole. None of this fits the visual evidence of the Z-film.

Mitch Todd:

--- Quote from: Benjamin Cole on April 16, 2026, 03:31:59 AM ---MT:

Thanks for your comments.

It could be hubris, or more gently, an informed but incorrect opinion on Cyril Wecht's part.

Wecht has credentials on this topic far exceeding mine, so I am loath to contradict Wecht. I lean to Wecht's explanation.

My layman's opinion is Gov JBC could not have held his right-hand grip on the Stetson after being shot through the dorsal side of the right wrist by the large and heavy slug, issued from an M-C.

The M-C, and related Western Cartridge ammo, is right on the borderline of what is considered a high-powered rifle (or carbine if you want to get technical).

The average muzzle velocity of the Western Cartridge Company (WCC) 6.5×52mm Carcano ammunition (CE-399) fired from the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was approximately 2,165 feet per second (fps).

The slug might have slowed down by the time it struck JBC's wrist, if we assume it passed through JBC's chest first.

Curiously, the WC held that the Western Cartridge slug "tumbled" inside of JBC's wrist, causing even more damage than if it had tunneled through. Ouch!

Like I said, I am just a layman, but...really? JBC held onto the Stetson even after CE-399 "tumbled" through his wrist?

Another side question: After the Western Cartridge slug passed through JBC's wrist, then it burrowed into JBC left thigh, by the WC account.

After that, the slug from the thigh should have been retrieved by a nurse or attendant, and put into an envelope. All hospitals, even then, saved bullets as standard procedure, and all gunshots had to be reported to local police, for good and obvious reasons.

I would expect that in such a high-profile murder and attempted murder case, the slug from JBC's thigh would, of course, be placed into an envelope and marked by a nurse or attendant as such. This is really basic. I cannot imagine these procedures were not followed.

Yet the WC holds that CE-399 was found several floors below the JBC operating room, either on the floor, or near or underneath a gurney, near an elevator, by Parkland employee Darryl Tomlinson.

Huh?

That has always struck me as curious. I will probably post on this soon.

Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.

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BC: It could be hubris, or more gently, an informed but incorrect opinion on Cyril Wecht's part. Wecht has credentials on this topic far exceeding mine, so I am loath to contradict Wecht. I lean to Wecht's explanation.

Other experienced MEs (Baden, Loqvam, Spitz, et al) don't have a problem with Connaly continuing to hold his hat. Artwohl, an MD if not an ME, was also okay with it. In the realm of medical experts who pay attention to the issue, Wecht is in a small minority here. It may even be a minority of one.


Curiously, the WC held that the Western Cartridge slug "tumbled" inside of JBC's wrist, causing even more damage than if it had tunneled through. Ouch!

Something like that. The WC maintained, after Gregory, that the bullet was traveling backwards when it struck Connally's wrist. The presence of a small metallic fragment just below the surface of the thigh wound indicated to them that the bullet was still travelling backwards when it his the thigh. The bullet must have begun tumbling before it hit the wrist in order for it to impact butt-first, but it doesn't seem to have tumbled too much while travelling through the wrist and into the thigh. All of that being said, would it really have made a difference?


[BC] After that, the slug from the thigh should have been retrieved by a nurse or attendant, and put into an envelope. All hospitals, even then, saved bullets as standard procedure, and all gunshots had to be reported to local police, for good and obvious reasons. I would expect that in such a high-profile murder and attempted murder case, the slug from JBC's thigh would, of course, be placed into an envelope and marked by a nurse or attendant as such. This is really basic. I cannot imagine these procedures were not followed.

Oh boy, would that have been helpful, now wouldn't it!?

CE399 was picked up by a SS agent stationed in the hallway near the elevators after being ratted out by Tomlinson. There was then a short comedic interlude whereby the SS agent, Parkland security director OP Wright, and a couple of FBI men argued over  who should have jurisdiction over the bullet. Presumably, the SS guy though he was being clever when he chose "rock", while Wright and the FBI guys were more experienced at this and all chose "paper," Leaving the Secret Service in possession of the little copper-coated t*rducken.

BTW, there is one coincidence involving CE399 that I find provocative, and have never seen discussed. Many skeptics say that CE399 was found not on Connally's stretcher, but on a different stretcher that carried a young boy named Ronnie Fuller back to minor surgery to have a nasty cut sewn up. This stretcher was piloted through the Parkland ER suite by a nurse's aide named Rosa Majors. But that's not the only role she played that day. Before Fuller needed help, Majors was in Trauma Room 2 while the medical staff was assessing Connally's wounds.  Her job there was to take possession of Connally's clothing, removing and collecting Connally's personal effects therefrom. That would have put her in prime contention of finding a bullet that had fallen from the wound in Connally's thigh. And if CE399 was indeed found on Fuller's stretcher, and was deliberately placed on it, then she becomes a prime suspect in placing there.

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