The best evidence Ferrie and Clay Shaw were close acquaintences

[Michael T. Griffith]

On a recent episode of The Lone Gunman podcast, Rob Clark reads out a Jan 1978 HSCA interview of Orest Pena. Its not his testimony, but an interview. Clark spends about 20 minutes reading the document here:

A particularly interesting part of the document, which Clark reads out at 1 hour 31 minutes, has Orest Pena stating:

“…Ferrie and Clay Shaw both came to my bar many times. They definitely knew each other because they came together a few times. Throughout the interview, Mr. Pena alluded to or inferred many pieces of information that he is in possession of. In effect he wanted some good faith on the part of the committee before he would talk about things. For instance, on the subject of Ferrie and Shaw he states that he knows the identity of a woman who came to the bar with Ferrie and she will be willing to talk to us. However he refused to identify her at this time.”

Orest Pena is generally viewed as a credible witness and so for Pena to say this would appear to be the best evidence that Ferrie and Shaw knew each other very well. Does anyone have a link to the Jan 1978 interview which Rob Clark reads out in the podcast and a link to the 90 page long testimony he references?

The only HSCA testimony of Pena I can find is his June 23rd 1978 testimony (RIF: 180-10075-10169) and that is only 36 pages long (not 90 pages) and can be viewed here:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32246611.pdf

There is also a July 31st 1978 summary of that June 23rd testimony (RIF: 180-10075-10166). The July 31st 1978 summary can be viewed here:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32246608.pdf

Gerry, there is additional evidence that supports Pena's claims. I say the following on this matter in my book A Comforting Lie: The Myth That a Lone Gunman Killed President Kennedy:

According to an HSCA document released by the ARRB, Orest Pena, an anti-Castro Cuban who was involved in training anti-Castro fighters, told the HSCA that Oswald was a government agent or informant. Pena was an FBI informant and operated a bar in New Orleans when Oswald spent time there, and Oswald was known to have visited Pena’s bar. Pena also told the HSCA that he gave this information to the WC but that the Commission ignored it (23:5-35).

Pena reported that on several occasions he saw Oswald speaking with FBI Cuban specialist Warren de Brueys, with David Smith at the Customs office, and with Wendell Roache at the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) office in New Orleans.

Pena was not always consistent in his accounts, but Roache confirmed Pena’s account about seeing Oswald in the New Orleans INS office when Roache was interviewed by the Church Committee. Roache said that he had “frequently” seen Oswald in the INS office and that Oswald even had an office there (24:2).

Roache stated in another Church Committee interview that during INS surveillance, Oswald was seen going into the offices of David Ferrie’s anti-Castro group in New Orleans, and that “Oswald was known to be one of the men in the group” (25:1). (pp. 62-63)

If you'll message me your mailing address, I'd be glad to send you a free copy of my book.

In reading your replies in this thread, I am again impressed by your calm, respectful demeanor. You are always a gentleman. (You and Fred are my two "favorite" lone-gunman theorists!)

[Gerry Down]

Gerry, there is additional evidence that supports Pena's claims. I say the following on this matter in my book A Comforting Lie: The Myth That a Lone Gunman Killed President Kennedy:

According to an HSCA document released by the ARRB, Orest Pena, an anti-Castro Cuban who was involved in training anti-Castro fighters, told the HSCA that Oswald was a government agent or informant. Pena was an FBI informant and operated a bar in New Orleans when Oswald spent time there, and Oswald was known to have visited Pena’s bar. Pena also told the HSCA that he gave this information to the WC but that the Commission ignored it (23:5-35).

Pena reported that on several occasions he saw Oswald speaking with FBI Cuban specialist Warren de Brueys, with David Smith at the Customs office, and with Wendell Roache at the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) office in New Orleans.

Pena was not always consistent in his accounts, but Roache confirmed Pena’s account about seeing Oswald in the New Orleans INS office when Roache was interviewed by the Church Committee. Roache said that he had “frequently” seen Oswald in the INS office and that Oswald even had an office there (24:2).

Roache stated in another Church Committee interview that during INS surveillance, Oswald was seen going into the offices of David Ferrie’s anti-Castro group in New Orleans, and that “Oswald was known to be one of the men in the group” (25:1). (pp. 62-63)

If you'll message me your mailing address, I'd be glad to send you a free copy of my book.

In reading your replies in this thread, I am again impressed by your calm, respectful demeanor. You are always a gentleman. (You and Fred are my two "favorite" lone-gunman theorists!)

Thanks for the offer. I've already bought and read your book.

Thanks for the kind words by the way 

[Gerry Down]

Still must get through your book on Vietnam which i'm looking forward to as i've got a feeling it will contain some good info based on your debated discussions with Jim D on the Ed forum about a year ago.

[Michael T. Griffith]

GD--

Even Max Holland admitted that Shaw lied in court, regarding his role as a CIA asset.

I doubt Shaw was knowingly involved in the JFKA.

Was Shaw monitoring LHO in 1963, on behalf of Solie or someone else in the CIA? That seems like a legit question.

J. Kenneth McDonnald, the chief of the CIA's History Staff, said Shaw was a "contract source," which is more than just being a "domestic contact."

Anyway, FWIW, Lou Ivon, Garrison's chief investigator, said Ferrie told him that he had worked for the CIA, that Clay Shaw had used the alias Clay Betrand, that Shaw had been involved with the CIA, that Oswald had been in Guy Banister’s office many times, and that Oswald had been to the CIA-sponsored training camp near New Orleans where anti-Castro Cubans were trained. I have a hard time believing that Ivin simply fabricated all of this.

I am essentially agnostic about Clay Shaw's role in the assassination. I don't see how he fits into it, except just maybe as one of the funding sources. Fred Litwin's research has caused me to be skeptical about much of Garrison's case against Shaw.

I think David Ferrie probably knew some of the anti-Castro Cubans who were part of the plot, and I think he may have been aware of the basics of how the shooting would be carried out. It is not hard to imagine Ferrie blustering about how to kill JFK at a Clay Shaw party, given that Ferrie once publicly said JFK should be shot following the Bay of Pigs fiasco.

Certainly, Ferrie's late-night trip to Houston on 11/22/63 through a severe rain storm smells to high heaven and has no credible innocent explanation. Ferrie said the trip was just for rest and relaxation to go goose hunting and roller skating. However, while at the skating rink in Houston, Ferrie spent his time on the telephone, according to rink owner Chuck Rolland. 

At 11 p.m. on Saturday, Ferrie and his two young male companions arrived at the Driftwood Motel in Galveston, room 117. Phone records show that someone in Ferrie's room placed a collect call to the Town and Country Motel in New Orleans, which "just happened" to be Carlos Marcello's HQ in the city. My, my! Figure the odds!

None of these actions agree with Ferrie's tale that the trip was just for rest and relaxation to go goose hunting and roller skating.

According to Carlos Quiroga, a Cuban who had been involved with the CRC, Ferrie often provided Arcacha Smith with funds, stating, "Ferrie lent him (Arcacha Smith) money when he needed it for his family. . . . He (Ferrie) had $100 bills around all the time" (1 HSCA 112). Where did Ferrie get the money for all those loans, and how did he have $100 bills around "all the time"? In fact, Ferrie continued to loan and flash money even after he had lost his job with the airlines (1 HSCA 112).

The HSCA report noted,

An FBI report of April 1961 indicated Marcello offered Arcacha Smith a deal whereby Marcello would make a substantial donation to the movement in return for concessions in Cuba after Castro's overthrow. One explanation of Ferrie's ability to provide funds to Arcacha Smith may be that he acted as Marcello's financial conduit. (1 HSCA 112)

BTW, Oswald's former landlady in New Orleans, Mrs. Jesse Garner, told HSCA investigators that Ferrie visited her home shortly after the assassination and asked about Oswald's library card. Of course, the answer from WC defenders is that Mrs. Garner must have been "mistaken" or "fabricating."

[Lance Payette]

Orest Pena, J. Kenneth McDonald, Clay Shaw, Polly wants a cracker, squawk squawk squawk.

The problem I have with all these types of discussions is that it's just regurgitating the same stuff over and over and over, ad nauseam. Virtually everything MTG posts is right out of one of his previous writings, to which he endlessly refers us. Unless it's just self-promotion, which I suspect it mostly is in the case of MTG and Jimbo and many others, what's the point? I assume that 99% of people who gravitate to a site such as this have a pretty fair base of knowledge about the JFKA, so what is the point of regurgitating "What about this?" and "What about that?" over and over and over as though the audience were junior high schoolers? And then those regurgitated points generate the same countervailing points that have likewise been regurgitated over and over and over. Is there some purpose in all this, or is it just self-promotion and mental masturbation? Every time I participate for any length of time, I start asking myself these questions and coming up with no better answer than mental masturbation (but at least I'm having fun with it!).

This was why I was excited to read Phantom Shot. It was something NEW! I hadn't heard it 974 times before. It was pretty persuasive and made me think. Ditto with John Orr's work. It's not just regurgitating the same tired talking points, and the same tired responses, for the 974th time.

Orest Pena, J. Kenneth McDonald, Clay Shaw, Polly wants a cracker, squawk squawk squawk.

Now, come on people: MTG's tedious posts or THIS? No contest.

[Gerry Down]

Anyway, FWIW, Lou Ivon, Garrison's chief investigator, said Ferrie told him that he had worked for the CIA, that Clay Shaw had used the alias Clay Betrand, that Shaw had been involved with the CIA, that Oswald had been in Guy Banister’s office many times, and that Oswald had been to the CIA-sponsored training camp near New Orleans where anti-Castro Cubans were trained. I have a hard time believing that Ivin simply fabricated all of this.

I didn't realise Lou Ivon made this claim. Do you have a source for this?

It seems a bit fantastic that Ferrie would say these things because by saying these things Ferrie was in a way tying himself up with Oswald, as how else would Ferrie know these things?

And I thought Ferrie was trying to distance himself from LHO, not tie himself up with him.

[Michael T. Griffith]

Orest Pena, J. Kenneth McDonald, Clay Shaw, Polly wants a cracker, squawk squawk squawk.

The problem I have with all these types of discussions is that it's just regurgitating the same stuff over and over and over, ad nauseam. Virtually everything MTG posts is right out of one of his previous writings, to which he endlessly refers us. Unless it's just self-promotion, which I suspect it mostly is in the case of MTG and Jimbo and many others, what's the point? I assume that 99% of people who gravitate to a site such as this have a pretty fair base of knowledge about the JFKA, so what is the point of regurgitating "What about this?" and "What about that?" over and over and over as though the audience were junior high schoolers? And then those regurgitated points generate the same countervailing points that have likewise been regurgitated over and over and over. Is there some purpose in all this, or is it just self-promotion and mental masturbation? Every time I participate for any length of time, I start asking myself these questions and coming up with no better answer than mental masturbation (but at least I'm having fun with it!).

This was why I was excited to read Phantom Shot. It was something NEW! I hadn't heard it 974 times before. It was pretty persuasive and made me think. Ditto with John Orr's work. It's not just regurgitating the same tired talking points, and the same tired responses, for the 974th time.

Orest Pena, J. Kenneth McDonald, Clay Shaw, Polly wants a cracker, squawk squawk squawk.

Now, come on people: MTG's tedious posts or THIS? No contest.

You are unserious, a borderline troll. I notice that, yet again, you declined to address a single fact that I presented.

Of course, I don't blame you for not attempting to address the facts, since you've usually gotten your clock cleaned when you've done so.

Apparently I am living in your head, and rent free at that.