The Zany Theory that Only Two Shots Were Fired During the Assassination

[Michael T. Griffith]

We have one person in this forum who actually believes that only two shots were fired during the assassination, period--two and only two. Until this morning when I read one of his replies, I assumed this person believed in the Howard Donahue version of the assassination, but he does not.

I am responding to his reply in a new thread in order to focus attention on this zany theory.

The fact there were only two shots has you confused about which shot did what? Really?

First of all, FYI, according to the official record, of the 178 witnesses who were asked about the number of shots they thought they heard and whose answers were documented in some way, 81% claimed they heard three shots, 12% claimed they heard two shots, 5% claimed they heard four or more shots, and 2% claimed they heard only one shot.

A number of the witnesses said two of the shots were fired almost simultaneously, and the acoustical evidence confirms this was the case.

M Griffith: Since you're obviously never going to address the facts about the alleged shooting feat, I would like to have you answer these three questions:

1. Are you saying that Oswald did not fire the head shot?

No, LHO did fire the shot. You know the second shot.
 
M Griffith: 2. If so, who fired the head shot?

Oswald

If Oswald fired the head shot, how do you explain the fact that the ammo that hit JFK's head behaved nothing like FMJ ammo?

Here's what Dr. Vincent DiMaio, one of the world's leading forensic experts, said about bullet fragmentation and FMJ bullets:

Dr. Vincent DiMaoi, considered one of the greatest experts on wound ballistics in the 20th and 21st centuries, said that FMJ bullets will not leave numerous fragments (a "snowstorm") inside a skull or inside another area with bone:

In x-rays of through-and-through gunshot wounds, the presence of small fragments of metal along the wound track virtually rules out full metal-jacketed ammunition.. . . In rare instances, involving full metal-jacketed centerfire rifle bullets, a few small, dust-like fragments of lead may be seen on x-ray if the bullet perforates bone. One of the most characteristic x-rays and one that will indicate the type of weapon and ammunition used is that seen from centerfire rifles firing hunting ammunition. In such a case, one will see a “lead snowstorm” [Figure 11.4]. In high-quality x-rays, the majority of the fragments visualized have a fine “dust-like” quality. Such a picture rules out full metal-jacketed rifle ammunition or a shotgun slug. (Gunshot Wounds, CRC Press, Boca Raton, 1999, p. 318, emphasis added).

JFK's skull x-rays show a cluster of some 40 small fragments in the right-frontal area, which rules out FMJ ammo.

And how do you account for the small fragments on the rear outer table of JFK's skull seen on the autopsy skull x-rays, which fragments are at least 3 inches above the rear head entry wound and 1 cm below the debunked cowlick entry site? These fragments could only be ricochet fragments from the missed shot that hit the pavement near the limo early in the shooting.

M Griffith: 3. How do you account for the bullet/fragment that struck the curb near James Tague, the bullet that burrowed into the grass near the south Elm Street manhole cover, and the bullet that made the Aldredge curb scar?

No need. You have proof that these are somehow connected to the carcano and LHO?

You're kidding, right? The Tague curb was hit and Tague was wounded in the cheek during the shooting. We have contemporaneous testimony from a police officer regarding the bullet hole in the curb.

The bullet that hit the grass near the south Elm Street manhole cover was seen to hit the grass during the shooting. Dallas policeman J. W. Foster, positioned on top of the triple underpass, saw the bullet strike the grass on the south side of Elm Street near the manhole cover. He radioed his superior to report it and was instructed to guard the area.

Have you ever seen a bullet hit grass? I have. It's easy to spot. The bullet kicks up dirt and burrows into the grass. Again, Foster spotted this, radioed it in, and was told to guard the impact area.

Journalists and bystanders were kept at a distance from the spot where the bullet landed. We have photos of an unidentified blond-haired man in a suit bending down, reaching out his left hand toward the dug-out point on the ground as if to pick up something, standing back up, cupping his left hand as if holding something, and then putting his hand in his pocket.

Contemporary press accounts reported that a bullet was retrieved from the dug-out hole in the grass near the manhole cover. For example, the Fort Worth Star-Telegram published a photo of the hole in the grass and said in the photo's caption that a bullet hit the grass:

One of the rifle bullets fired by the murderer of President Kennedy lies in the grass across Elm Street. . . .

The next day the Dallas Times Herald, in referring to the hole in the grass, reported:

Dallas Police Lt. J. C. Day of the crime lab estimated the distance from the sixth-floor window . . . to the spot where one of the bullets was recovered at 100 yards.

Newsman Richard Dudman said the following about this miss and the recovered bullet in the 12/21/63 issue of the New Republic:

On the day the President was shot I happened to learn of a possible fifth [bullet]. A group of police officers were examining the area at the side of the street where the President was hit, and a police inspector told me they had just found another bullet in the grass.

Officer Foster also reported that a bullet struck the concrete part of the manhole cover. It is not known if this was the same missile that made the dug-out hole in the grass a few feet from the manhole cover. The bullet might have skipped off the manhole cover and then imbedded itself in the grass. Or, the mark on the concrete could have been made by a separate bullet, and thus would represent another miss fired from the same approximate location. The sewer cover and the hole in the turf were about 3-5 feet apart, and the latter was farther down the side of Elm Street (that is, it was slightly farther away from the TSBD than was the sewer cover).

About two and a half hours after the shooting, Dealey Plaza witness John Martin came across the mark on the manhole cover. He immediately identified it as a bullet mark. He then told a policeman, "you better get your boss down here to check this thing out, because that will show where the bullet came from."

I should add that five witnesses saw a bullet strike the pavement on Elm Street near the right rear of the limousine shortly after the limo turned onto Elm Street. Witnesses saw this bullet kick up concrete toward the car. Because of the credibility and force of the eyewitness accounts, even Gerald Posner acknowledges this miss.

I should also add that among the files released by the ARRB between 1994 and 1996 was an FBI evidence envelope (FBI Field Office Dallas 89-43-1A-122). Although the envelope was empty, the cover stated that it had contained a 7.65 mm rifle shell that had been found in Dealey Plaza after the shooting. The envelope is dated 2 December 1963, so the shell was found sometime between 11/22/63 and 12/2/63. Nothing was known about the discovery of this shell until the FBI evidence envelope was released along with other assassination-related files. It is a severe stretch to assume that someone just innocently left a 7.65 mm bullet shell in the downtown plaza of a major city.

M Griffith: I just want to be clear on your position. I've been assuming you follow the Howard Donahue scenario, but I want to be certain that is the case.

HUH? There were two shots and you are struggling as to which shot is which? There is this film called the Zapruder Film you can watch that should help.

M Griffith: “Yes, CE 543, the dented shell, could not have been used to fire a bullet on 11/22/63, but this does not prove that only two shots were fired during the assassination.”


You aren’t clear on this? Really? You can’t put this together? SBT and the headshot. Why is that so hard for you? I know because it completely unravels your whole little conspiracy show. It is really hard to have this fantasy conspiracy if there were just the two shots.[/quote]

This zany version of the shooting puts you in an even smaller fringe of the lone-assassin camp than I thought you were. In fact, I can't think of any other person in the lone-gunman camp who believes that only two shots were fired during the assassination. If anyone else thinks this, please speak up.

BTW, the Zapruder film shows reactions to six shots, which is surely one of the reasons the film was suppressed for so long:

"Reactions to Six Shots in the Zapruder Film"
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nnp3Vch_KMOB_qufAhlQOCLTTS9jqNV0/view

[Frederick Clements]

There is a book about this theory called "A Simple Act Of Murder". It was written by a homicide detective from Los Angeles.

Fred

[Michael T. Griffith]

There is a book about this theory called "A Simple Act Of Murder". It was written by a homicide detective from Los Angeles. Fred

Oh my heavens. Are you actually citing the book written by the disgraced, racist, confessed LAPD evidence planter, former LAPD homicide detective Mark Fuhrman? Fuhrman knows next to nothing about the JFK case, as his book makes painfully obvious.

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if Jack Nessan has been relying on Fuhrman's comical book. It would explain a lot.

[Jack Nessan]

Oh my heavens. Are you actually citing the book written by the disgraced, racist, confessed LAPD evidence planter, former LAPD homicide detective Mark Fuhrman? Fuhrman knows next to nothing about the JFK case, as his book makes painfully obvious.

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if Jack Nessan has been relying on Fuhrman's comical book. It would explain a lot.

Oh my heavens. Are you actually citing the book written by the disgraced, racist, confessed LAPD evidence planter, former LAPD homicide detective Mark Fuhrman? Fuhrman knows next to nothing about the JFK case, as his book makes painfully obvious.

It didn’t stop you. Your post prove it is painfully obvious you have nothing but conjecture and no substance.
 
That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if Jack Nessan has been relying on Fuhrman's comical book. It would explain a lot.

I did not know he had written a book on the subject or have forgotten he had done so. Everything you encounter seems to be a surprise. You spend your days rattling on about the JFK assassination conspiracy and provide nothing but gossip and hearsay.

It is really simple. Two shots are LHO is the assassin. As you repeatedly prove every time you post this nonsense, there is no proof of a third shot.

[Jack Nessan]

We have one person in this forum who actually believes that only two shots were fired during the assassination, period--two and only two. Until this morning when I read one of his replies, I assumed this person believed in the Howard Donahue version of the assassination, but he does not.

I am responding to his reply in a new thread in order to focus attention on this zany theory.

First of all, FYI, according to the official record, of the 178 witnesses who were asked about the number of shots they thought they heard and whose answers were documented in some way, 81% claimed they heard three shots, 12% claimed they heard two shots, 5% claimed they heard four or more shots, and 2% claimed they heard only one shot.

A number of the witnesses said two of the shots were fired almost simultaneously, and the acoustical evidence confirms this was the case.

If Oswald fired the head shot, how do you explain the fact that the ammo that hit JFK's head behaved nothing like FMJ ammo?

Here's what Dr. Vincent DiMaio, one of the world's leading forensic experts, said about bullet fragmentation and FMJ bullets:

Dr. Vincent DiMaoi, considered one of the greatest experts on wound ballistics in the 20th and 21st centuries, said that FMJ bullets will not leave numerous fragments (a "snowstorm") inside a skull or inside another area with bone:

In x-rays of through-and-through gunshot wounds, the presence of small fragments of metal along the wound track virtually rules out full metal-jacketed ammunition.. . . In rare instances, involving full metal-jacketed centerfire rifle bullets, a few small, dust-like fragments of lead may be seen on x-ray if the bullet perforates bone. One of the most characteristic x-rays and one that will indicate the type of weapon and ammunition used is that seen from centerfire rifles firing hunting ammunition. In such a case, one will see a “lead snowstorm” [Figure 11.4]. In high-quality x-rays, the majority of the fragments visualized have a fine “dust-like” quality. Such a picture rules out full metal-jacketed rifle ammunition or a shotgun slug. (Gunshot Wounds, CRC Press, Boca Raton, 1999, p. 318, emphasis added).

JFK's skull x-rays show a cluster of some 40 small fragments in the right-frontal area, which rules out FMJ ammo.

And how do you account for the small fragments on the rear outer table of JFK's skull seen on the autopsy skull x-rays, which fragments are at least 3 inches above the rear head entry wound and 1 cm below the debunked cowlick entry site? These fragments could only be ricochet fragments from the missed shot that hit the pavement near the limo early in the shooting.

You're kidding, right? The Tague curb was hit and Tague was wounded in the cheek during the shooting. We have contemporaneous testimony from a police officer regarding the bullet hole in the curb.

The bullet that hit the grass near the south Elm Street manhole cover was seen to hit the grass during the shooting. Dallas policeman J. W. Foster, positioned on top of the triple underpass, saw the bullet strike the grass on the south side of Elm Street near the manhole cover. He radioed his superior to report it and was instructed to guard the area.

Have you ever seen a bullet hit grass? I have. It's easy to spot. The bullet kicks up dirt and burrows into the grass. Again, Foster spotted this, radioed it in, and was told to guard the impact area.

Journalists and bystanders were kept at a distance from the spot where the bullet landed. We have photos of an unidentified blond-haired man in a suit bending down, reaching out his left hand toward the dug-out point on the ground as if to pick up something, standing back up, cupping his left hand as if holding something, and then putting his hand in his pocket.

Contemporary press accounts reported that a bullet was retrieved from the dug-out hole in the grass near the manhole cover. For example, the Fort Worth Star-Telegram published a photo of the hole in the grass and said in the photo's caption that a bullet hit the grass:

One of the rifle bullets fired by the murderer of President Kennedy lies in the grass across Elm Street. . . .

The next day the Dallas Times Herald, in referring to the hole in the grass, reported:

Dallas Police Lt. J. C. Day of the crime lab estimated the distance from the sixth-floor window . . . to the spot where one of the bullets was recovered at 100 yards.

Newsman Richard Dudman said the following about this miss and the recovered bullet in the 12/21/63 issue of the New Republic:

On the day the President was shot I happened to learn of a possible fifth [bullet]. A group of police officers were examining the area at the side of the street where the President was hit, and a police inspector told me they had just found another bullet in the grass.

Officer Foster also reported that a bullet struck the concrete part of the manhole cover. It is not known if this was the same missile that made the dug-out hole in the grass a few feet from the manhole cover. The bullet might have skipped off the manhole cover and then imbedded itself in the grass. Or, the mark on the concrete could have been made by a separate bullet, and thus would represent another miss fired from the same approximate location. The sewer cover and the hole in the turf were about 3-5 feet apart, and the latter was farther down the side of Elm Street (that is, it was slightly farther away from the TSBD than was the sewer cover).

About two and a half hours after the shooting, Dealey Plaza witness John Martin came across the mark on the manhole cover. He immediately identified it as a bullet mark. He then told a policeman, "you better get your boss down here to check this thing out, because that will show where the bullet came from."

I should add that five witnesses saw a bullet strike the pavement on Elm Street near the right rear of the limousine shortly after the limo turned onto Elm Street. Witnesses saw this bullet kick up concrete toward the car. Because of the credibility and force of the eyewitness accounts, even Gerald Posner acknowledges this miss.

I should also add that among the files released by the ARRB between 1994 and 1996 was an FBI evidence envelope (FBI Field Office Dallas 89-43-1A-122). Although the envelope was empty, the cover stated that it had contained a 7.65 mm rifle shell that had been found in Dealey Plaza after the shooting. The envelope is dated 2 December 1963, so the shell was found sometime between 11/22/63 and 12/2/63. Nothing was known about the discovery of this shell until the FBI evidence envelope was released along with other assassination-related files. It is a severe stretch to assume that someone just innocently left a 7.65 mm bullet shell in the downtown plaza of a major city.

M Griffith: I just want to be clear on your position. I've been assuming you follow the Howard Donahue scenario, but I want to be certain that is the case.

HUH? There were two shots and you are struggling as to which shot is which? There is this film called the Zapruder Film you can watch that should help.

M Griffith: “Yes, CE 543, the dented shell, could not have been used to fire a bullet on 11/22/63, but this does not prove that only two shots were fired during the assassination.”


You aren’t clear on this? Really? You can’t put this together? SBT and the headshot. Why is that so hard for you? I know because it completely unravels your whole little conspiracy show. It is really hard to have this fantasy conspiracy if there were just the two shots.

This zany version of the shooting puts you in an even smaller fringe of the lone-assassin camp than I thought you were. In fact, I can't think of any other person in the lone-gunman camp who believes that only two shots were fired during the assassination. If anyone else thinks this, please speak up.

BTW, the Zapruder film shows reactions to six shots, which is surely one of the reasons the film was suppressed for so long:

"Reactions to Six Shots in the Zapruder Film"
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nnp3Vch_KMOB_qufAhlQOCLTTS9jqNV0/view

First of all, FYI, according to the official record, of the 178 witnesses who were asked about the number of shots they thought they heard and whose answers were documented in some way, 81% claimed they heard three shots, 12% claimed they heard two shots, 5% claimed they heard four or more shots, and 2% claimed they heard only one shot.
 
A number of the witnesses said two of the shots were fired almost simultaneously, and the acoustical evidence confirms this was the case.


There was no acoustical evidence at all. The almost simultaneous shots indicate two shots total. You remember the HSCA Sound Analysis conclusion --- the surprised witnesses...
 

The HSCA 178 witness figure seems to attract the weak minded. Nobody has a clue how that number is even derived.

The second shot was the headshot is a little more conservative than the analysis performed on Pat Speer’s website. Pat’s website would dramatically increase the number of second shot was the headshot. Just to help you understand the ramifications of it all. That would make the first shot SBT.

There are fewer three shot eyewitnesses in and around the car. So much for percentages.

The second shot headshot does not include all the witnesses who stated the last two shots sounded like one shot. 

This is a partial list. These are all people who think there was only two shots fired during the assassination.

Two shot witnesses

Jackie, Nelly, Bill Newman, Gayle Newman, John Chism, Faye Chism, Jean Newman, Charles Brehm, Clint Hill, DPD Chaney, DPD Hargis, Sheriff Decker, Garland Slack, James Altgens, Malcolm Summers, Charles Roberts, BR Williams, Brennan, SA Greer, A Zapruder, Marilyn Sitzman, Charles Hester, Beatrice Hester, SA Glenn Bennet, Ann Donaldson, Peggy Burney, Dolores Kounas, Dave Powers, Kenneth O’Donnell, SA Landis,  Ernest Brandt, James Powell, James Darnell, Hugh Betzner, Seth Kantor, Lupe Whitaker, F Lee Mudd, Ernest Brandt, Milton Wright, James Perry, JW foster, Clemon Johnson, Jack Franzen, Mrs Jack Franzen, Jeff Franzen, Ann Ruth Moore, Mary Hall, Toni Glover

 

Second shot was the headshot

James Jarmin, Harold Norman, SA Kellerman, Marilyn Willis, SA Kinney, SA Hickey, Mary Woodward, John Templin, Gov Connally, Mary Moorman, SA Emory Roberts, Hugh Aynesworth, Ruby Henderson, DPD Douglas Jackson, Jerry Kivett, Cliff Carter, Thomas Johns, June Dishong, Aurelia Alonzo, Margaret Brown, Georgia Ruth Hendrix, DPD JW Foster
-------------------------

The bullet that hit the grass near the south Elm Street manhole cover was seen to hit the grass during the shooting. Dallas policeman J. W. Foster, positioned on top of the triple underpass, saw the bullet strike the grass on the south side of Elm Street near the manhole cover. He radioed his superior to report it and was instructed to guard the area.

Have you ever seen a bullet hit grass? I have. It's easy to spot. The bullet kicks up dirt and burrows into the grass. Again, Foster spotted this, radioed it in, and was told to guard the impact area.

 Another Griffith red herring. JW Foster did not actually see anything.

Do you ever have evidence that actually is real?

Do you have anything else? Like real evidence. Something that actually exists.

JW Foster

Mr. FOSTER - No, a manhole cover. It was hit. they caught the manhole cover right on the corner and -
Mr. BALL - You saw a mark on the manhole cover did you?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes sir.
Mr. BALL - I show you a picture here of a concrete slab. or manhole cover. Do you recognize that picture?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Does the picture show - tell me what it shows there.
Mr. FOSTER - This looks like the corner here where it penetrated the turf right here [indicating].
Mr. BALL - See any mark on the manhole cover?
Mr. FOSTER - No, sir; I don't. not on the - well, it is on the turf, on the concrete, right in the corner.

Mr. BALL - It was not on the manhole cover?
Mr. FOSTER - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Went into the turf?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you recover any bullet?
Mr. FOSTER - No, sir. It ricocheted on out.


Oh no, not another missing piece of fictional evidence.

Another whole Michael post of fiction, fantasy and lots of pseudo experts but no evidence to prove this oddball theory.

How about trot out the experts again that analyzed the faked autopsy XRays. That is one of my favorites.

 

[David Von Pein]

There is a book about this theory called "A Simple Act Of Murder". It was written by a homicide detective from Los Angeles.

That's not correct. Mark Fuhrman's 2006 book doesn't support a "2 Shots Only" theory.

You're thinking of the 2013 book "Phantom Shot".

[Charles Collins]

Here is a DPD photo of the manhole apron that shows where a bullet struck in the corner of the apron. As you can see, debris (or turf if you prefer) has collected in that corner. The bullet penetrated the debris, struck the concrete apron below and ricocheted, and the exit hole can also be seen where the bullet “ricocheted on out”. I believe that Foster’s testimony makes perfect sense and that this photo shows what Foster described.




Close-up cropped view:

[Benjamin Cole]

GC-

My recollection is that the manhole cover shot appeared to come from the direction of the TSBD or Dal-Tex buildings.

There has been something written to the effect a slug was found in the vicinity, but that remains controversial.