Was the Rifle that Lt. Day carried out of the TSBD the same as in evidence?

[John Mytton]

I came across this new thread at the Ed Forum;
"What is the best and most concise evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald was framed?"

And our very own number one conspiracy Kook's very first example was the following, which I must admit I had never heard of, and upon careful consideration makes zero sense.

"-- The photographic evidence that proves that the rifle that Lt. Day carried out of the TSBD did not have the markings that are on CE 139 (i.e., the rifle that was later entered into evidence as the alleged murder weapon)."
Michael Griffith

Anyway let's see if his latest allegation has any merit.

First of all, the HSCA determined that because of the random size and shape of the gouge on the forestock of Oswald's rifle was also seen in a backyard photo, then they were the exact same rifle.



Secondly, the rifle discovered on the 6th floor of Oswald's workplace also showed this same random gouge.





Thirdly, out of the photos of Lt. Day carrying the rifle from the Depository I couldn't find a photo of the rifle showing the gouge side. So I looked for a high resolution photo of the strap side and then looked for similarities.

1. The random nick along the top edge about a centimetre from the end matches in size, shape and location.
2. The upper portion of the butt end of the rifle in Day's TSBD photo shows a long dark gouge which matches the specular highlights in the official evidence photo.
3. There are multiple little nicks and scratches which can be seen in the same places in both images.



Since the above GIF loses a little definition in the process of becoming an animation, here are JPEGs of the originals.





Conclusion.

I see no reason for Day's weapon swap and from examining the photographic evidence I am satisfied that the same rifle discovered on the 6th floor remained the same rifle through to the rifle as seen as Official Evidence.

BTW, if Griffith can provide better evidence and a reasonable explanation for the rifle swap then I'm willing to listen but until then, his latest conspiracy theory is yet another, go nowhere pile of conspiracy BS!

JohnM

[Lance Payette]

Good work, John. You have reminded me of my own past lunacy. In 2020, I did a massive thread at the Ed Forum, replete with photos, about the rifle SLING. I must've been extremely bored.

"Oswald's rifle sling - an exercise in factoid-busting"

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26500-oswalds-rifle-sling-an-exercise-in-factoid-busting/#comment-419320

It caused Jim DiEugenio to declare me a troll, so it must've been pretty good. (Actually, it went nowhere and was rightly characterized as "boring" and myself rightly characterized as a "condescending jerk," which I suppose is one step up from troll.)

(I don't know if anyone remembers this, but DiEugenio used to announce that he had put people, including me, on Ignore. He then could not resist responding and would come up with absolutely hilarious excuses as to how he had accidentally seen the posts to which he was responding - his poodle stepped on the keyboard and erased all previous settings, etc. If you don't take DiEugenio seriously and learn to accept him for the kind of sad buffoon he is, he's really quite humorous.)

[Michael T. Griffith]

I came across this new thread at the Ed Forum;
"What is the best and most concise evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald was framed?"

And our very own number one conspiracy Kook's very first example was the following, which I must admit I had never heard of, and upon careful consideration makes zero sense.

"-- The photographic evidence that proves that the rifle that Lt. Day carried out of the TSBD did not have the markings that are on CE 139 (i.e., the rifle that was later entered into evidence as the alleged murder weapon)."
Michael Griffith

Anyway let's see if his latest allegation has any merit.

First of all, the HSCA determined that because of the random size and shape of the gouge on the forestock of Oswald's rifle was also seen in a backyard photo, then they were the exact same rifle.

Secondly, the rifle discovered on the 6th floor of Oswald's workplace also showed this same random gouge.

Thirdly, out of the photos of Lt. Day carrying the rifle from the Depository I couldn't find a photo of the rifle showing the gouge side. So I looked for a high resolution photo of the strap side and then looked for similarities.

1. The random nick along the top edge about a centimetre from the end matches in size, shape and location.
2. The upper portion of the butt end of the rifle in Day's TSBD photo shows a long dark gouge which matches the specular highlights in the official evidence photo.
3. There are multiple little nicks and scratches which can be seen in the same places in both images.

Since the above GIF loses a little definition in the process of becoming an animation, here are JPEGs of the originals.

Conclusion.

I see no reason for Day's weapon swap and from examining the photographic evidence I am satisfied that the same rifle discovered on the 6th floor remained the same rifle through to the rifle as seen as Official Evidence.

BTW, if Griffith can provide better evidence and a reasonable explanation for the rifle swap then I'm willing to listen but until then, his latest conspiracy theory is yet another, go nowhere pile of conspiracy BS!

JohnM

More of your uninformed, erroneous material. Do you have any idea how many Mauser-like rifles have the strap attachments embedded on the side? By the way, the rifle that Oswald allegedly ordered had the strap attachments on the bottom, not on the side. The photo of the rifle in the catalog shows this.

Anyway, David Josephs has proved conclusively, definitively with photographic evidence that the rifle that Lt. Day carried out of the TSBD has none of the markings on the rifle that was later entered into evidence (CE 139):

The Mauser, the Carcano, and the Lt. Day Rifle
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-mauser-the-carcano-and-the-lt-day-rifle

I recommend two other articles by Josephs related to the alleged murder weapon:

Rifle Money Order Timeline
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/rifle-money-order-timeline
An analytical timeline which demonstrates the difficulties with the Warren Commission's story about Oswald's alleged purchase of the Mannlicher-Carcano.

The Klein's Rifle
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-klein-s-rifle
More evidence against the official story about Oswald's alleged purchase of a rifle from Klein's.

[Richard Smith]

It is difficult to understand how there could be any more evidence that links Oswald - and Oswald alone - to this particular rifle than exists.  That evidence derives from a variety of different sources.  It can't  all be faked.  No other person has any connection to this particular rifle.  Anyone who suggests doubt about Oswald's ownership and possession of this rifle in the months leading up to the assassination can't be taken seriously.  Absent a time machine, it's hard to understand what evidence would convince them of this fact if the existing body of evidence is deemed lacking. 

[Michael T. Griffith]

It is difficult to understand how there could be any more evidence that links Oswald - and Oswald alone - to this particular rifle than exists.  That evidence derives from a variety of different sources.  It can't  all be faked.  No other person has any connection to this particular rifle.  Anyone who suggests doubt about Oswald's ownership and possession of this rifle in the months leading up to the assassination can't be taken seriously.  Absent a time machine, it's hard to understand what evidence would convince them of this fact if the existing body of evidence is deemed lacking.

This statement is decades behind the information curve. This statement would have been defensible from the 1960s to the mid-1970s, but it is inexcusably wrong now to be coming from anyone who says they're a serious student of the case. Are you aware that even DPD Chief Jesse Curry later admitted that they didn't have any solid evidence that put Oswald in the sniper's nest with a rifle in his hand? When you take a closer look at the evidence against Oswald, every single time you find gaping holes, contradictions, and fraud.

Did you read David Josephs' article on the Lt. Day Carcano? He proves with enlargements of the high-quality photo of Day carrying the rifle out of the building that the Day rifle had none--not one--of the markings that are found on CE 139.

The Mauser, the Carcano, and the Lt. Day Rifle
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-mauser-the-carcano-and-the-lt-day-rifle

I recommend two other articles by Josephs related to the alleged murder weapon:

Rifle Money Order Timeline
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/rifle-money-order-timeline
An analytical timeline which demonstrates the difficulties with the Warren Commission's story about Oswald's alleged purchase of the Mannlicher-Carcano.

The Klein's Rifle
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-klein-s-rifle
More evidence against the official story about Oswald's alleged purchase of a rifle from Klein's.

[Royell Storing]

   John - Good to have you back over here. I need you to get in touch with me. I have found something that has Never been kicked around previously. It's not a shooter or rifle or anything along those dramatic lines. But what I have found is "image" based and would either rise or fall under your intense scrutiny. And I do welcome that acid test. I'm sending you a PM containing a general description of what I have found.

                         Let me know either way

                              Respectfully,

                             Royell Storing

[Lance Payette]

   John - Good to have you back over here. I need you to get in touch with me. I have found something that has Never been kicked around previously. It's not a shooter or rifle or anything along those dramatic lines. But what I have found is "image" based and would either rise or fall under your intense scrutiny. And I do welcome that acid test. I'm sending you a PM containing a general description of what I have found.

                         Let me know either way

                              Respectfully,

                             Royell Storing

Would this be the same "image-based acid test" you sucked me into and then dropped the subject when my initial response was less than enthusiastic, or was that a different image-based acid-test? At least in my opinion, this effort to find bombshells in old photos and films is the ultimate Rorschach test.

[John Mytton]

Good work, John. You have reminded me of my own past lunacy. In 2020, I did a massive thread at the Ed Forum, replete with photos, about the rifle SLING. I must've been extremely bored.

"Oswald's rifle sling - an exercise in factoid-busting"

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26500-oswalds-rifle-sling-an-exercise-in-factoid-busting/#comment-419320

It caused Jim DiEugenio to declare me a troll, so it must've been pretty good. (Actually, it went nowhere and was rightly characterized as "boring" and myself rightly characterized as a "condescending jerk," which I suppose is one step up from troll.)

(I don't know if anyone remembers this, but DiEugenio used to announce that he had put people, including me, on Ignore. He then could not resist responding and would come up with absolutely hilarious excuses as to how he had accidentally seen the posts to which he was responding - his poodle stepped on the keyboard and erased all previous settings, etc. If you don't take DiEugenio seriously and learn to accept him for the kind of sad buffoon he is, he's really quite humorous.)

Your piece over at the Ed Forum was very informative and interesting, also what was interesting was how you lost your name and became a "Guest"/Troll, and the replies are hilarious, "well you may have proved that but how about this"??

It's also fascinating how Pat Speer and even Griffith who challenge some well established conspiracy nonsense suddenly become paid agents of the CIA, what's especially funny is that these two subscribe to the exact same belief that Oswald didn't pull the trigger but if you question even a sliver of what the majority believe then you're not on their team. LOL!

As I've said in the past, what's even more interesting than this case which I find rewarding on many levels like examining photos, film and a unique slice of time in our history, is interacting and studying somewhat intelligent people who will believe absolutely anything that supports their conspiracy belief and it doesn't matter if some conspiracy evidence doesn't make sense or fit a logical narrative, they blindly persist in their irrational belief and I guess that they hopefully believe that one day they will crack this case and can finally find peace.

JohnM