What if the sixth floor had not been empty?

[Lance Payette]

Just thinking out loud here ...

The fact that the sixth floor of the TSBD was conveniently empty by pure happenstance at the time of the JFKA seems to slide past everyone. Because it was in fact empty, CTers focus on how the shooter(s) got in and out of the TSBD while LNers focus on how Oswald did the same.

But what if it had not been empty? More to the point, how could anyone possibly know it would be empty?

What if Jarman, Norman and Williams had decided to watch from the sixth floor instead of the fifth? What if members of the floor-laying crew (which included Williams and sometimes Norman) had decided to remain and watch from this perch or get their lunches and return to it? What if other TSBD employees had decided to watch from this higher vantage point rather than the second, third, fourth or fifth floors? They conveniently didn’t – but how could anyone possibly know they wouldn’t?

As far as I know, the sixth floor would have been accessible by stairs or elevator throughout the JFKA. No one took the obvious step of placing a sign or two saying "Men Working – Sixth Floor Temporarily Closed.” (No, the power did not go out in the TSBD. Geneva Hines was talking about the bank of extension lights on her telephone.)

The fact that the sixth floor was empty seems to me to be pure happenstance that could not possibly have been anticipated with anything like certainty. Isn’t this pretty much the kiss of death for any conspiracy involving someone other than Oswald as the shooter on the sixth floor? It would have been insanely risky, would it not, to assume that not only could the shooter enter and exit the TSBD without being observed but that the preparations and actual shooting would not be observed because the sixth floor would be completely empty?

Turning to Oswald, even he is somewhat problematical. Would he have simply shot his fellow TSBD employees like Jarman, Williams and Norman? I tend to think not. Would he have attempted to escape, holding them at bay with the rifle until he reached the stairs? Nah, to have any hope of leaving the TSBD, he needed to be unobserved. Would he have shot JFK and then shot himself? Possibly, but I doubt it. Would he have called off the JKFA entirely? Possibly, but I doubt it. My guess is, he would’ve shot JFK and allowed himself to be arrested since I don’t think he could have had any realistic expectation of exiting the TSBD in the first place.

Oswald had to have factored into his thinking from the get-go the possibility that there would be others on the sixth floor; indeed, his creation of his sniper’s test behind stacked boxes suggests this was exactly what he was thinking.

Yes, he did shoot Tippit - but by that time he had astonished himself by escaping the TSBD and now had a realistic hope of escaping completely. I doubt he had any such hope when he decided that morning to carry out the JFKA or when he was sitting in the sniper's nest.

The distinct possibility that the sixth floor would not be empty, and the fact that it was pure happenstance that it was empty, seem to me to be possible to reconcile with Oswald as the shooter but impossible to reconcile with any conspiracy involving someone other than Oswald as the sixth-floor shooter.

[Charles Collins]

Just thinking out loud here ...

The fact that the sixth floor of the TSBD was conveniently empty by pure happenstance at the time of the JFKA seems to slide past everyone. Because it was in fact empty, CTers focus on how the shooter(s) got in and out of the TSBD while LNers focus on how Oswald did the same.

But what if it had not been empty? More to the point, how could anyone possibly know it would be empty?

What if Jarman, Norman and Williams had decided to watch from the sixth floor instead of the fifth? What if members of the floor-laying crew (which included Williams and sometimes Norman) had decided to remain and watch from this perch or get their lunches and return to it? What if other TSBD employees had decided to watch from this higher vantage point rather than the second, third, fourth or fifth floors? They conveniently didn’t – but how could anyone possibly know they wouldn’t?

As far as I know, the sixth floor would have been accessible by stairs or elevator throughout the JFKA. No one took the obvious step of placing a sign or two saying "Men Working – Sixth Floor Temporarily Closed.” (No, the power did not go out in the TSBD. Geneva Hines was talking about the bank of extension lights on her telephone.)

The fact that the sixth floor was empty seems to me to be pure happenstance that could not possibly have been anticipated with anything like certainty. Isn’t this pretty much the kiss of death for any conspiracy involving someone other than Oswald as the shooter on the sixth floor? It would have been insanely risky, would it not, to assume that not only could the shooter enter and exit the TSBD without being observed but that the preparations and actual shooting would not be observed because the sixth floor would be completely empty?

Turning to Oswald, even he is somewhat problematical. Would he have simply shot his fellow TSBD employees like Jarman, Williams and Norman? I tend to think not. Would he have attempted to escape, holding them at bay with the rifle until he reached the stairs? Nah, to have any hope of leaving the TSBD, he needed to be unobserved. Would he have shot JFK and then shot himself? Possibly, but I doubt it. Would he have called off the JKFA entirely? Possibly, but I doubt it. My guess is, he would’ve shot JFK and allowed himself to be arrested since I don’t think he could have had any realistic expectation of exiting the TSBD in the first place.

Oswald had to have factored into his thinking from the get-go the possibility that there would be others on the sixth floor; indeed, his creation of his sniper’s test behind stacked boxes suggests this was exactly what he was thinking.

Yes, he did shoot Tippit - but by that time he had astonished himself by escaping the TSBD and now had a realistic hope of escaping completely. I doubt he had any such hope when he decided that morning to carry out the JFKA or when he was sitting in the sniper's nest.

The distinct possibility that the sixth floor would not be empty, and the fact that it was pure happenstance that it was empty, seem to me to be possible to reconcile with Oswald as the shooter but impossible to reconcile with any conspiracy involving someone other than Oswald as the sixth-floor shooter.

This speculative scenario might give some food for thought:

For me, some of Arnold Rowland’s account rings true. He reported his sighting of a man with a rifle on the west end of the sixth floor of the TSBD to his wife at the time he saw him. He also reported this to the authorities shortly thereafter in his 11/22/63 affidavit. Some of his WC testimony rings true to me. My 3D computer model indicates he could have seen pretty much what he described of the man through that window. So, it appears to me that as of 15-minutes before the shooting LHO was likely standing with his rifle where Rowland indicated.

So, why would LHO expose himself at that time (when BRW was still on the sixth floor)? Well, this was at the same time that the ambulance came into Dealey Plaza with siren on to pick up the epilepsy victim. I think that LHO had been trapped on the west end of the sixth floor when BRW came back up to eat his lunch. There is evidence to suggest that LHO hid his rifle near the west end of the sixth floor (he left his clipboard near there, and eventually hid the rifle there after the shooting). It the above is what happened, then it makes sense to me that LHO, as he was hiding on the west end of the sixth floor and being quiet, heard the commotions of the ambulance and might have thought that this was the sounds of the motorcade approaching. LHO could have quietly stayed out of BRW’s sight (behind stacked boxes) and stood up to see what was going on outside. Rowland could have seen him standing back a little way from the window. If it had been the motorcade approaching, I believe LHO could have (and probably would have) fired from one of the windows on the west end of the sixth floor. I doubt that BRW or anyone else could have stopped him until it was too late.

However, BRW did leave the sixth floor before the motorcade got there. And LHO was able to move into position in the sniper’s nest as planned. LHO still had one live bullet he could have used if anyone had been on or came up to the sixth floor before LHO hid the rifle and left.

So, your opinion and mine differ with respect to whether or not LHO would have shot his way out of the sixth floor of the TSBD. But I pretty much agree with the rest of your ideas.

[Jake Maxwell]

Just thinking out loud here ...

The fact that the sixth floor of the TSBD was conveniently empty by pure happenstance at the time of the JFKA seems to slide past everyone. Because it was in fact empty, CTers focus on how the shooter(s) got in and out of the TSBD while LNers focus on how Oswald did the same.

But what if it had not been empty? More to the point, how could anyone possibly know it would be empty?

What if Jarman, Norman and Williams had decided to watch from the sixth floor instead of the fifth? What if members of the floor-laying crew (which included Williams and sometimes Norman) had decided to remain and watch from this perch or get their lunches and return to it? What if other TSBD employees had decided to watch from this higher vantage point rather than the second, third, fourth or fifth floors? They conveniently didn’t – but how could anyone possibly know they wouldn’t?

As far as I know, the sixth floor would have been accessible by stairs or elevator throughout the JFKA. No one took the obvious step of placing a sign or two saying "Men Working – Sixth Floor Temporarily Closed.” (No, the power did not go out in the TSBD. Geneva Hines was talking about the bank of extension lights on her telephone.)

The fact that the sixth floor was empty seems to me to be pure happenstance that could not possibly have been anticipated with anything like certainty. Isn’t this pretty much the kiss of death for any conspiracy involving someone other than Oswald as the shooter on the sixth floor? It would have been insanely risky, would it not, to assume that not only could the shooter enter and exit the TSBD without being observed but that the preparations and actual shooting would not be observed because the sixth floor would be completely empty?

Turning to Oswald, even he is somewhat problematical. Would he have simply shot his fellow TSBD employees like Jarman, Williams and Norman? I tend to think not. Would he have attempted to escape, holding them at bay with the rifle until he reached the stairs? Nah, to have any hope of leaving the TSBD, he needed to be unobserved. Would he have shot JFK and then shot himself? Possibly, but I doubt it. Would he have called off the JKFA entirely? Possibly, but I doubt it. My guess is, he would’ve shot JFK and allowed himself to be arrested since I don’t think he could have had any realistic expectation of exiting the TSBD in the first place.

Oswald had to have factored into his thinking from the get-go the possibility that there would be others on the sixth floor; indeed, his creation of his sniper’s test behind stacked boxes suggests this was exactly what he was thinking.

Yes, he did shoot Tippit - but by that time he had astonished himself by escaping the TSBD and now had a realistic hope of escaping completely. I doubt he had any such hope when he decided that morning to carry out the JFKA or when he was sitting in the sniper's nest.

The distinct possibility that the sixth floor would not be empty, and the fact that it was pure happenstance that it was empty, seem to me to be possible to reconcile with Oswald as the shooter but impossible to reconcile with any conspiracy involving someone other than Oswald as the sixth-floor shooter.

I don't think it was unusual for the workers Bonnie Ray Williams, Harold Norman, and James "Junior" Jarman to eat lunch on the 6th floor. I think it's possible that any one of these three might have been targeted as the assassin if the scenario blaming Oswald didn't "hold." In fact, one of these three might have been "first choice."

I also think the more we know about our government agencies... then, and today... the less credibility they all have... and the less assurance we have that they will do the "right" thing...

Power corrupts... absolute power corrupts absolutely...

[Bill Brown]

Just thinking out loud here ...

The fact that the sixth floor of the TSBD was conveniently empty by pure happenstance at the time of the JFKA seems to slide past everyone. Because it was in fact empty, CTers focus on how the shooter(s) got in and out of the TSBD while LNers focus on how Oswald did the same.

But what if it had not been empty? More to the point, how could anyone possibly know it would be empty?

What if Jarman, Norman and Williams had decided to watch from the sixth floor instead of the fifth? What if members of the floor-laying crew (which included Williams and sometimes Norman) had decided to remain and watch from this perch or get their lunches and return to it? What if other TSBD employees had decided to watch from this higher vantage point rather than the second, third, fourth or fifth floors? They conveniently didn’t – but how could anyone possibly know they wouldn’t?

As far as I know, the sixth floor would have been accessible by stairs or elevator throughout the JFKA. No one took the obvious step of placing a sign or two saying "Men Working – Sixth Floor Temporarily Closed.” (No, the power did not go out in the TSBD. Geneva Hines was talking about the bank of extension lights on her telephone.)

The fact that the sixth floor was empty seems to me to be pure happenstance that could not possibly have been anticipated with anything like certainty. Isn’t this pretty much the kiss of death for any conspiracy involving someone other than Oswald as the shooter on the sixth floor? It would have been insanely risky, would it not, to assume that not only could the shooter enter and exit the TSBD without being observed but that the preparations and actual shooting would not be observed because the sixth floor would be completely empty?

Turning to Oswald, even he is somewhat problematical. Would he have simply shot his fellow TSBD employees like Jarman, Williams and Norman? I tend to think not. Would he have attempted to escape, holding them at bay with the rifle until he reached the stairs? Nah, to have any hope of leaving the TSBD, he needed to be unobserved. Would he have shot JFK and then shot himself? Possibly, but I doubt it. Would he have called off the JKFA entirely? Possibly, but I doubt it. My guess is, he would’ve shot JFK and allowed himself to be arrested since I don’t think he could have had any realistic expectation of exiting the TSBD in the first place.

Oswald had to have factored into his thinking from the get-go the possibility that there would be others on the sixth floor; indeed, his creation of his sniper’s test behind stacked boxes suggests this was exactly what he was thinking.

Yes, he did shoot Tippit - but by that time he had astonished himself by escaping the TSBD and now had a realistic hope of escaping completely. I doubt he had any such hope when he decided that morning to carry out the JFKA or when he was sitting in the sniper's nest.

The distinct possibility that the sixth floor would not be empty, and the fact that it was pure happenstance that it was empty, seem to me to be possible to reconcile with Oswald as the shooter but impossible to reconcile with any conspiracy involving someone other than Oswald as the sixth-floor shooter.

As far as I know, the sixth floor would have been accessible by stairs or elevator throughout the JFKA. No one took the obvious step of placing a sign or two saying "Men Working – Sixth Floor Temporarily Closed.”

The freight elevators were on the sixth floor.  Remember that Oswald asked the others to send the elevator back up.  Once the elevator arrives back up to the sixth floor, Oswald raises the security gate, which deems the elevator inoperable.  This is also why Baker and Truly couldn't get an elevator when they tried.

[Charles Collins]

The freight elevators were on the sixth floor.  Remember that Oswald asked the others to send the elevator back up.  Once the elevator arrives back up to the sixth floor, Oswald raises the security gate, which deems the elevator inoperable.  This is also why Baker and Truly couldn't get an elevator when they tried.

I believe the elevators were reportedly on the fifth floor. However, there is no reason to not believe that LHO could have walked the steps down to the fifth floor and raised the gate as you suggest. Then walked back up the steps to the sixth floor.

[Bill Brown]

Also for what it's worth, the passenger elevator went only up to the fourth floor.  An assassin on the sixth floor wouldn't be concerned with any unwanted visitors from the passenger elevator.

[Lance Payette]

I believe the elevators were reportedly on the fifth floor. However, there is no reason to not believe that LHO could have walked the steps down to the fifth floor and raised the gate as you suggest. Then walked back up the steps to the sixth floor.

That (fifth floor) was my recollection as well. In any event, I'm talking about the entire period preceding the assassination. It is a fact that the sixth floor was empty and perhaps even that the elevators were not readily available after everyone had departed, but I don't see how anyone including Oswald could reasonably have anticipated this in advance. How could Oswald know that some or all of the departing members of the flooring crew wouldn't say "We'll be right back up with our lunches because we want to watch from here"? How could he know that Jarman, Norman and Williams wouldn't decide the view from the sixth floor might be better than the fifth?

I don't want to get as locked-in to my theory as many CTers are to theirs, but the most believable scenario to me is that (1) Oswald had done nothing resembling assassination planning and was not fully committed to the JFKA until the morning of 11-22; (2) by the morning of the JFKA, Oswald was at the end of his rope psychologically, had no expectation of escaping the TSBD, and thus had no plan of escape; (3) he was surprised and happy to find himself alone on the sixth floor, astonished to survive the lunchroom encounter, and equally astonished to find himself outside the TSBD; and (4) everything after that was Oswald thinking on the run and flying by the seat of his pants. Lawyers are always looking for what they call a "theory of the case" that the judge or jury will accept as believable, and that's what I try to do: What makes the most sense as to what was really going on with Oswald?

Lastly, the uncertainty that the sixth floor would be empty seems to me a far bigger risk for supposed conspirators than the risk of getting in and out of the TSBD, which is why I do think this risk is the kiss of death for any theory that has someone other than Oswald being the sixth-floor shooter. A rational conspiracy theory has to accept Oswald as one of the shooters, even if it posits him as a patsy shooter who thought he was involved in a pro-Castro conspiracy when it was exactly the opposite. Oswald as an innocent patsy is simply nonsense, just people playing Oswald defense counsel for some reason I can't fathom. I do agree that Rowland probably saw Oswald down at the west end.

[Bill Brown]

Yes, the fifth floor, not the sixth.  Truly recalled looking up the freight elevator shaft and noting that both freight elevators were stopped on the fifth floor.