John Orr's analysis of the shots

[Lance Payette]

That is true.

I've never thought of it as a fascination on my part. That may very well be what it is. Some years ago on John McAdams' Google groups page, an LN of some stature thought that he could denigrate conspiracy theorists by calling them CT hobbyists. The truth of the matter is that most of us who engage in discussion and debate on the subject are hobbyists. That really is what I am. I don't bring much of my own to the debate. I've spent countless hours searching and researching on different aspects of the case. I spent many many hours debating and researching on the Klein's Sporting Goods Money order over a number of years. I was personally satisfied that the thing had been cashed but the issue wasn't put completely to rest in the minds of all of those with some capacity for reasoning until you came along in the Fall of 2015. And you put it to rest in relatively short order. I was pleased to see you piss off the Armstrong sycophants with your questioning of the Wilmouth document. I had done the same thing a couple of years prior. Except that my questioning of Armstrong's take on the document never reached his "desk".

I absolutely claim no status beyond hobbyist either, and the JFKA would be about tenth in my list of hobbies and interests. When I exposed the money order silliness after about an hour on Google, I was amused to find myself referred to on a couple of sites as "researcher Lance Payette." Gee, is that what it takes to be a researcher? Oh-so-serious Dan O'Meara doesn't seem to grasp that my references to myself as a Serious and Dedicated Researcher are entirely tongue-in-cheek. What I don't understand is why folks, LNers in particular, become so wedded to a particular narrative that propping it up becomes almost a crusade. Something like Orr's theory is way more interesting and fun. (As you probably know, pretend lawyer and certified nutcase Sandy Larsen still thinks he kicked my butt on the money order issue and regards it as one of his great triumphs. I finally traced through ALL the federal regulations dating back to the 1800s and was something like 10,000 words into THE definitive article on the money order silliness - which IS silliness - before saying "Oh, for God's sake, I have better things to do with my life than this.")

The HSCA’s ballistics experts did not conclude that, between the back and the throat, the bullet had carved an 11-degree upward track. Several members of the FPP believed that "when the body is repositioned in the anatomic position (not the position at the moment of shooting) the direction of the missile in the body on initial penetration was slightly upward(11 degrees)". Several members. Not the panel as a whole. Not even a majority.

My point was just that exactly what the bullet hit and how its path might have been altered seem to be very much open issues. Orr doesn't seem to me to be suggesting anything too wild.

Lest we forget, Orr was a respected and honored official in the Antitrust Division of the USDOJ and, while still in that position, submitted his report to Attorney General Janet Reno in hopes of reopening the JFKA investigation. He may have made errors, but I have to believe he wasn't playing fast and loose with the facts.

Quasi-religious attachment to the LN narrative? I don't think that describes me. But me being an SBT zealot, maybe it does. The theological stuff is weighing heavily on me as of late. My own views are somewhat malleable. I am a heretic. That much I do know. My aunt did read a nice bible passage at my Uncle's burial today. He was an agnostic. Yesterday a priest gave a very nice reading and dedication at the burial of my neighbour in that same cemetery. He was the first Catholic Priest to ever reside over a burial ceremony in our family cemetery since the first burial there in the mid 1800s. I live right next to that cemetery and have spent many years taking care of it.

Cool! One of our homes was right next to a cemetery. I could never understand why realtors considered that a negative. I can't imagine a more peaceful and reflective place to live - we loved it. My own religious beliefs are such that (1) I have been banned, multiple times, from literally every major Christian forum, and banned so many times from City-Data that I ("Irkle Berserkle" in my most famous persona) am something of a legend there, and (2) on said forums, I am routinely described as a "fundie" by the atheists and "not a Christian at all" by the fundies. I regard (1) and (2) as proof that I'm on the right path or at least pretty close.

[Charles Collins]

I absolutely claim no status beyond hobbyist either, and the JFKA would be about tenth in my list of hobbies and interests. When I exposed the money order silliness after about an hour on Google, I was amused to find myself referred to on a couple of sites as "researcher Lance Payette." Gee, is that what it takes to be a researcher? Oh-so-serious Dan O'Meara doesn't seem to grasp that my references to myself as a Serious and Dedicated Researcher are entirely tongue-in-cheek. What I don't understand is why folks, LNers in particular, become so wedded to a particular narrative that propping it up becomes almost a crusade. Something like Orr's theory is way more interesting and fun. (As you probably know, pretend lawyer and certified nutcase Sandy Larsen still thinks he kicked my butt on the money order issue and regards it as one of his great triumphs. I finally traced through ALL the federal regulations dating back to the 1800s and was something like 10,000 words into THE definitive article on the money order silliness - which IS silliness - before saying "Oh, for God's sake, I have better things to do with my life than this.")
My point was just that exactly what the bullet hit and how its path might have been altered seem to be very much open issues. Orr doesn't seem to me to be suggesting anything too wild.

Lest we forget, Orr was a respected and honored official in the Antitrust Division of the USDOJ and, while still in that position, submitted his report to Attorney General Janet Reno in hopes of reopening the JFKA investigation. He may have made errors, but I have to believe he wasn't playing fast and loose with the facts.

Cool! One of our homes was right next to a cemetery. I could never understand why realtors considered that a negative. I can't imagine a more peaceful and reflective place to live - we loved it. My own religious beliefs are such that (1) I have been banned, multiple times, from literally every major Christian forum, and banned so many times from City-Data that I ("Irkle Berserkle" in my most famous persona) am something of a legend there, and (2) on said forums, I am routinely described as a "fundie" by the atheists and "not a Christian at all" by the fundies. I regard (1) and (2) as proof that I'm on the right path or at least pretty close.

What I don't understand is why folks, LNers in particular, become so wedded to a particular narrative that propping it up becomes almost a crusade. Something like Orr's theory is way more interesting and fun.

That last sentence nails the reason why I think that the controversy continues.




Lest we forget, Orr was a respected and honored official in the Antitrust Division of the USDOJ and, while still in that position, submitted his report to Attorney General Janet Reno in hopes of reopening the JFKA investigation. He may have made errors, but I have to believe he wasn't playing fast and loose with the facts.

Let’s hear from another respected and honored official of the USDOJ. Howard Willens was an integral part and a leader of the Warren Commission staff. Here is part of what he had to say about the SBT from his book “History Will Prove Us Right”:

“ It was incredible to us then—and to me some fifty years later—that the members would reject persuasive scientific and other evidence in order to avoid suggesting that a single prestigious witness may have been incorrect in assessing, from memories of a traumatic event, which bullet hit him.”

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“ the single-bullet conclusion was the only supportable interpretation of all the evidence”


It is still the only supportable interpretation of all the evidence over 61-years later. Have fun as long as you wish with the wanna be ideas. When you decide you want answers, I suggest that you start listening to “the crusaders”.

[Jack Nessan]

What I don't understand is why folks, LNers in particular, become so wedded to a particular narrative that propping it up becomes almost a crusade. Something like Orr's theory is way more interesting and fun.

That last sentence nails the reason why I think that the controversy continues.




Lest we forget, Orr was a respected and honored official in the Antitrust Division of the USDOJ and, while still in that position, submitted his report to Attorney General Janet Reno in hopes of reopening the JFKA investigation. He may have made errors, but I have to believe he wasn't playing fast and loose with the facts.

Let’s hear from another respected and honored official of the USDOJ. Howard Willens was an integral part and a leader of the Warren Commission staff. Here is part of what he had to say about the SBT from his book “History Will Prove Us Right”:

“ It was incredible to us then—and to me some fifty years later—that the members would reject persuasive scientific and other evidence in order to avoid suggesting that a single prestigious witness may have been incorrect in assessing, from memories of a traumatic event, which bullet hit him.”

.
.
.

“ the single-bullet conclusion was the only supportable interpretation of all the evidence”


It is still the only supportable interpretation of all the evidence over 61-years later. Have fun as long as you wish with the wanna be ideas. When you decide you want answers, I suggest that you start listening to “the crusaders”.

Spot on. The Orr theory is flawed in a number of ways. Not even worth a second look.

[Lance Payette]

Spot on. The Orr theory is flawed in a number of ways. Not even worth a second look.

Would that be because it differs from YOUR two-shot theory, about which Charles and others here (but not me!) would say and have said the same things? Oh, the ironies abound at JFKA forums. If folks of the caliber of Larry Schnapf think Orr's theory is worth considerably more than a second look, I'm at least going to listen.

[Lance Payette]

What I don't understand is why folks, LNers in particular, become so wedded to a particular narrative that propping it up becomes almost a crusade. Something like Orr's theory is way more interesting and fun.

That last sentence nails the reason why I think that the controversy continues.

OK, that can explain why those with the conspiracy-prone mindset are drawn to the JFKA, but it doesn't explain the phenomenon I'm talking about. I have 60+ years of intimate involvement with ufology and other areas of weirdness. There is simply no parallel to the LN community there. People aren't haunting forums, writing books and building careers around the theme "The UFO phenomenon is all nonsense, just crazies, hoaxes and military craft! There's nothing to it! The Robertson Panel in 1953 and the Condon Study in 1969 nailed it!" Debunkers of this sort - Harvard astronomer Donald Menzel and Aviation Week editor Philip Klass - were few, well-known and almost all government shills. There is no community with the level of emotional attachment to the UFO phenomenon being a Big Nothing that LN zealots seem to have to the LN narrative being correct, as though they are somehow offended and threatened by the notion that it might not be. I do find this quite mysterious. The only other arena in which I have encountered this sort of zealotry is the religious one, which is why the dynamics of the LN-CT debate strike me as very similar to a religious debate. I can get my mind around the CT narrative(s) functioning as a quasi-religion for those with the conspiracy-prone mindset, but why the LN narrative would do so is a genuine mystery to me.

[Tim Nickerson]

OK, that can explain why those with the conspiracy-prone mindset are drawn to the JFKA, but it doesn't explain the phenomenon I'm talking about. I have 60+ years of intimate involvement with ufology and other areas of weirdness. There is simply no parallel to the LN community there. People aren't haunting forums, writing books and building careers around the theme "The UFO phenomenon is all nonsense, just crazies, hoaxes and military craft! There's nothing to it! The Robertson Panel in 1953 and the Condon Study in 1969 nailed it!" Debunkers of this sort - Harvard astronomer Donald Menzel and Aviation Week editor Philip Klass - were few, well-known and almost all government shills. There is no community with the level of emotional attachment to the UFO phenomenon being a Big Nothing that LN zealots seem to have to the LN narrative being correct, as though they are somehow offended and threatened by the notion that it might not be. I do find this quite mysterious. The only other arena in which I have encountered this sort of zealotry is the religious one, which is why the dynamics of the LN-CT debate strike me as very similar to a religious debate. I can get my mind around the CT narrative(s) functioning as a quasi-religion for those with the conspiracy-prone mindset, but why the LN narrative would do so is a genuine mystery to me.

Not far from where I live, as the crow flies.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/Cases/CaseSubarticle.asp?ID=168

[Charles Collins]

OK, that can explain why those with the conspiracy-prone mindset are drawn to the JFKA, but it doesn't explain the phenomenon I'm talking about. I have 60+ years of intimate involvement with ufology and other areas of weirdness. There is simply no parallel to the LN community there. People aren't haunting forums, writing books and building careers around the theme "The UFO phenomenon is all nonsense, just crazies, hoaxes and military craft! There's nothing to it! The Robertson Panel in 1953 and the Condon Study in 1969 nailed it!" Debunkers of this sort - Harvard astronomer Donald Menzel and Aviation Week editor Philip Klass - were few, well-known and almost all government shills. There is no community with the level of emotional attachment to the UFO phenomenon being a Big Nothing that LN zealots seem to have to the LN narrative being correct, as though they are somehow offended and threatened by the notion that it might not be. I do find this quite mysterious. The only other arena in which I have encountered this sort of zealotry is the religious one, which is why the dynamics of the LN-CT debate strike me as very similar to a religious debate. I can get my mind around the CT narrative(s) functioning as a quasi-religion for those with the conspiracy-prone mindset, but why the LN narrative would do so is a genuine mystery to me.

I think that, for some folks, the zealotry extends to both sides of the controversy.

LHO was a fanatical zealot, with some other issues, who apparently was so consumed with his misguided beliefs that he appeared to be willing to sacrifice his life. Jack Ruby was so offended by LHO’s actions that he too was apparently willing to give up his life.

Politics and religion are subjects that are often avoided during polite conversation. The main reason is that some people get easily offended when others disagree with their opinions of these matters (which are close to their hearts).

I think that some of the basic elements of both politics and religion are at the basis of the justice system in the USA (and most of the civilized world). I was only 10-years old at the time of the assassination. However, I was old enough to sense and feel the profound sadness; plus sense and feel the entire world being deeply offended by LHO’s actions. Those are feelings that simply do not diminish very much (for me anyway).

I have said it before and will likely say it again, I envision LHO burning eternally in hell with satan eternally taunting him with the fact that so many people do not believe (and never will) that LHO was capable of successfully accomplishing the assassination. For someone with LHO’s ego that taunting would be devastating torture.

So, when we combine elements of politics, religion and justice (into the JFK assassination debate) we are entering a place where zealotry can flourish. Many of us entered this arena out of curiosity after seeing the movie JFK. We wanted to learn the real facts of the case. I think that anyone who keeps an open mind, and equally investigates sources from both sides of the controversy, stands a very good chance of learning the truth. It is usually the open mind that is the most difficult item to maintain. Especially in an arena where zealotry is prevalent.