The deformation of CE-399 adds credibility to the SBT

[Jack Nessan]

"...what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision..."

This is one of those LNer "truths" I have never been able to get my head around.
How does CE399 "match the injuries"?
It is clearly the case, obvious to anyone with a grain of common sense, that CE399 had nothing to do with JBC's wrist injury. What evidence have LNers based their interpretation on, supporting the view that CE399 "matches the injuries"?

It is clearly the case, obvious to anyone with a grain of common sense, that CE399 had nothing to do with JBC's wrist injury. What evidence have LNers based their interpretation on, supporting the view that CE399 "matches the injuries"?

So, what you are insinuating is John and everyone else does not know, but you do know what the bullet should look like to match the injuries. Especially given the wrist injury.

[Michael T. Griffith]

Dr. John Lattimer's SBT test was actually fairly realistic, but, as was his habit, he misrepresented the results by falsely claiming that his test produced a bullet with the same minimal damage as CE 399.

For his SBT test, Lattimer used animal tissue to simulate Kennedy's neck, a rib cage to simulate Connally's torso, and radius bones wrapped in simulated forearms to simulate Connally's forearm. Lattimer said four bullets out of 20 struck all three objects. A picture of one of the test bullets shows it was split at the nose in several places and was markedly deformed, much more deformed than CE 399. When Stewart Galanor asked Lattimer, in a filmed interview, if he could examine the bullets that struck all three simulation objects, Lattimer said he had thrown them away (Galanor, Cover-Up, New York: Kestrel Books, 1998, p. 42).

Or, let's take the 1967 CBS test when CBS hired Dr. Olivier to conduct a simulation of the SBT. The test was a complete sham because it simply ignored most of the damage that CE 399 supposedly did.

In a televised interview, Olivier admitted that his CBS test did not include striking a rib: "Of course, we have no rib here [in the test], but it still simulates passing through the flesh."

Olivier further admitted that even without simulating the damage to Connally's rib, some the bullets failed to exit the wrist: "In some cases, it passed through the wrist; in other cases it lodged in the wrist."

Crucially, not a single bullet in the CBS test managed to lodge in the simulated thigh.

A 12-inch gelatin block was used to simulate Connally's chest. By failing to put a simulated rib bone within this block, Olivier ensured that the test bullets would not become badly deformed while passing through the simulated chest. But this led to another complication: It meant the bullets would strike the simulated wrist at a greater velocity than the bullet presumed to have struck Connally's wrist--yet, even so, not one of the bullets lodged in the simulated thigh.

I should add that the CBS test also did not include passing through a human neck. Yes, that's right: The test made no effort to simulate the neck. Its bullets went straight into a simulated chest without first having to rip through a neck.

In 1968, a CBS producer named Stephen White wrote a book titled Should We Now Believe the Warren Report?, which brazenly misrepresented the CBS SBT test results, falsely claiming they proved the SBT was feasible. White also showed he knew little about wound ballistics.

White claimed "the Governor's chest wound was clearly caused by a bullet traveling at high velocity" (p. 71). But, the alleged murder file was a low-velocity weapon, as FBI firearms expert Robert Frazier admitted to the WC (3 H 414).

Incredibly, White claimed that CE 399 did not hit "a hard structure" during its alleged journey, bafflingly ignoring the fact that CE 399 supposedly destroyed 5 inches of rib bone and then smashed Connally's radius bone! Said White,

"A full-jacketed bullet, wholly sheathed in copper, which does not make direct impact
with hard structure can go a long way and do a good deal of damage without showing
much effect. . . . The bullet, with its tough protective shield, was never subjected to an
abrupt change of momentum. . . . There were at no time forces exerted upon it
sufficient to deform it to any great extent; merely continuous small forces which
robbed it bit by bit of its energy" (p 92).

White falsely claimed that "CBS News went to some great pains to recreate a part of the path taken by the bullet, using carefully measured blocks of gelatin to simulate the resistance offered by tissue, and other artifacts to represent clothing and bone structure." Was White just not aware that the test did not simulate the neck and the rib bone?

White then claimed that the CBS test proved the SBT was plausible. He wrote that under the circumstances people could not expect "precise results" from the CBS test, and that the "approximate answer" was "entirely consistent, within its margin of error, with the single-bullet theory." Right, so even though the test failed to simulate a human neck and a rib bone, and even though some of the bullets failed to exit the wrist, and even though not one of the bullets lodged in the thigh, the test was "entirely consistent" with the SBT!

In 2003, the Discovery Channel created a similar simulation, with similar results. Once again, a bullet, without being asked to strike any simulated ribs at the exit point of a simulated chest, bounced off a simulated thigh, yet the program declared that it duplicated the SBT.

Pat Speer explains why the failure of these tests is not surprising, noting that world-famous forensic pathologist Dr. Milton Helpern dismissed the SBT as abjectly impossible:

The failure of these tests, moreover, should come as no surprise. In 1967, in the book
Where Death Delights, Dr. Milton Helpern, a man who had supervised 10,000 autopsies
on gunshot victims, explained why these tests were doomed to failure. He said:

“The single-bullet theory requires us to believe that this bullet went through seven
layers of skin—tough, elastic, resistant skin. . . . In addition to these seven layers
of tough, human skin, this bullet passed through other layers of soft tissue, and then
these shattered bones! I just can’t believe that this bullet had the force to do what
Mr. Specter and the Commission have demanded of it."

And it's not as if Helpern was just blowing smoke. In 1987, in a much-discussed letter
to the International Defense Review, Dr. Martin Fackler gave substance to
Dr. Helpern's observations by reporting his conclusion that human skin had the approximate
resistance of four inches of muscle tissue. Yes, that's right. Seven layers of skin have the
resistance of 28 inches of muscle tissue. This suggests, then, that Olivier's tests for CBS
quite possibly under-represented the amount of resistance encountered by the so-called
magic bullet. (https://www.patspeer.com/chapter11thesingle-bullettheory)

[Tom Graves]

[...]

Given: 1) the varying velocities of CE-399 during its wounding of JFK and JBC, 2) the fact that that a bullet like CE-399 has a tendency to start tumbling when it exits something soft, and 3) the fact that it had already passed through both JFK and JBC when it struck the radial bone in JBC's wrist, it's a fool's errand to try to duplicate the deformation that CE-399 sustained.

We can be confident, however, that CE-399 was already tumbling when it wounded JBC because it left an oblong entrance wound in his back.

And we can be confident that CE-399 was still tumbling when it penetrated JBC's wrist because it carried fibers from the margin of JBC's right suit sleeve into the wound, i.e., the round-nosed bullet must have penetrated the wrist backwards and carried said fibers into the wound with its squared-off base.

The damage to Connally's wrist would have been much greater (perhaps even requiring amputation) if it had been hit straight-on by a bullet travelling some 2000 feet-per-second, and the deformation to said bullet would have been significantly different (e.g., the nose would have been smashed).

And oh, yeah, CE-399 does have Oswald's Carcano's marks on it.

[Lance Payette]

CE 399 does not really “add credibility” to the SBT. CE 399 is “arguably not inconsistent with” the SBT. It would add more credibility to the SBT if it were far more extensively and plausibly damaged and its provenance were certain (e.g., it had been found lodged in Connally’s thigh at Parkland or on his seat in the limo). When we combine the startling condition of CE 399 with its uncertain provenance and the inherent implausibility of the SBT – well, sure, it’s way more of a problem for the LN narrative than a more damaged bullet lodged in JBC's thigh would have been.

I used to fire all sorts of guns at bottles and cans in a riverbed where the bullets lodged in a sand bank behind them. Sometimes we'd dig out the bullets just to see what they looked like. It was often very surprising how badly deformed they were. On the other hand, I was astonished at a documentary that showed a Carcano bullet penetrating two feet into a pine board and remaining more pristine than CE 399.

The biggest selling point of CE 399, it seems to me, is the connection to Oswald’s rifle. Assuming that CE 399 was indeed fired from Oswald’s rifle, then if the SBT isn’t correct we are quickly in the realm of an elaborate and implausible (to me) conspiracy. If CE 399 were a fake, what sort of Three Stooges conspirators would have produced a fake that looked so implausibly pristine and raised so many questions? How many shots would you have to fire to produce a bullet with that particular damage - 100 or more? And how would you know, before the JFKA or within a few hours thereafter, that you "needed" such a fake? And, unless you were in fact the Three Stooges, why would you ever have allowed a conspiracy scenario where the need for such a fake was even possible?

The SBT has survived 62 years of scrutiny, with enough medical, ballistics and forensics experts concurring with it, that it’s simply silly to say the SBT is "impossible." Yes, other experts have said this and tried to prove it, but to me the SBT, warts and all, stands as "implausible but possible" and probably the most likely explanation. To me, there are and always will be too many unknowns ever to say the SBT is definitely correct or definitely impossible. In the context of all else we know, it's a reasonable explanation.

What I don’t understand is why the debate continues on forums such as this, as though someone were going to say something new or startling at this point. I looked closely at the Knott Laboratory's study, and it seems to me to make assumptions about things that can’t possibly be known with the precision Knott claims. It was commissioned, moreover, by John Orr, who has been on an obsessive anti-SBT crusade for more than 30 years. I wonder how many people know that Orr’s theory, at least in 2013, had Oswald firing both the shot that hit JFK in the back and exited his throat and a separate shot that hit Connally in the back, as well as a third shot that missed; the head shot was (Orr says) a professional on top of what I take to be the Dal-Tex building. https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/how-i-investigated-president-john-f-kennedys-assassination. It’s difficult to believe that the paying client being a longtime anti-SBT crusader like Orr had no effect on Knott’s work.

In the nearly two years since the Knott study was published, it seems to have generated remarkably little interest apart from self-promotion by Knott. I found this comment at the Ed Forum by Tom Gram, who is certainly a sane and thorough researcher and who seems to share my concerns about the "precision" perhaps being more illusory than real.

The issue I think is that the limo and human models are just photogrammetry using the Zapruder film; so basically Dale Myers, and a few things don’t look particularly accurate. They have JFK way over on the edge of the car with his arm hanging over, shots at Z210 and Z225 which seems like an odd choice of frames for 2023, etc. etc.

One thing I’m surprised no one has commented on is it looks like they have the back wound positioned below the shoulder line and coming right out of the official exit on JFK’s neck. In that sense their model seems to support the SBT more than refute it.

[Tim Nickerson]

In the nearly two years since the Knott study was published, it seems to have generated remarkably little interest apart from self-promotion by Knott.

Have you read the actual Knott study? The full study, not a synopsis of it. If so, where can it be read?

[Lance Payette]

Have you read the actual Knott study? The full study, not a synopsis of it. If so, where can it be read?

No, I have been puzzled by this myself. I have Googled extensively and have (I think) read everything Knott has put out, but I have not seen the actual study. Pat Speer wrote that he understood there had been a falling out between Orr and Knott. Is it possible Orr owns the rights? It seems very odd that Knott does all this self-promotion but never actually says (as far as I can tell), "You can read the full study HERE."

[Lance Payette]

Long thread at the Ed Forum that isn't too kind to the Knott/Orr project: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/29880-%E2%80%9Cnew-evidence%E2%80%9D-why-the-sbt-is-impossible-so-says-the-video/page/2/

Larry Schnapf said this, which suggests there is no "study," just the dubious animation:

Knott Labs was hired by John Orr to develop photogrammetry for a 3D animation of DP. Orr provided the details and instructions to Knott to do a bare-bones 3D animation that focused on two frames of the Z-film.  Stoll-the CEO of KL- knew very little about the assassination and to this day continues to make serious mistakes when discussing the assassination, the project and the implications of the project.

After the initial 3D animation was completed in 2018,  John Orr and I formed a limited partnership to fund further work on this project.  We subequently parted ways with KL when the person who worked on the project left KL.  We have continued to revise the animation and are close to finishing it.

Stoll/KL is promoting an old version of the animation and I would not put much credence in anything Stoll or KL says. -FWIW

[Charles Collins]

CE 399 does not really “add credibility” to the SBT. CE 399 is “arguably not inconsistent with” the SBT. It would add more credibility to the SBT if it were far more extensively and plausibly damaged and its provenance were certain (e.g., it had been found lodged in Connally’s thigh at Parkland or on his seat in the limo). When we combine the startling condition of CE 399 with its uncertain provenance and the inherent implausibility of the SBT – well, sure, it’s way more of a problem for the LN narrative than a more damaged bullet lodged in JBC's thigh would have been.

I used to fire all sorts of guns at bottles and cans in a riverbed where the bullets lodged in a sand bank behind them. Sometimes we'd dig out the bullets just to see what they looked like. It was often very surprising how badly deformed they were. On the other hand, I was astonished at a documentary that showed a Carcano bullet penetrating two feet into a pine board and remaining more pristine than CE 399.

The biggest selling point of CE 399, it seems to me, is the connection to Oswald’s rifle. Assuming that CE 399 was indeed fired from Oswald’s rifle, then if the SBT isn’t correct we are quickly in the realm of an elaborate and implausible (to me) conspiracy. If CE 399 were a fake, what sort of Three Stooges conspirators would have produced a fake that looked so implausibly pristine and raised so many questions? How many shots would you have to fire to produce a bullet with that particular damage - 100 or more? And how would you know, before the JFKA or within a few hours thereafter, that you "needed" such a fake? And, unless you were in fact the Three Stooges, why would you ever have allowed a conspiracy scenario where the need for such a fake was even possible?

The SBT has survived 62 years of scrutiny, with enough medical, ballistics and forensics experts concurring with it, that it’s simply silly to say the SBT is "impossible." Yes, other experts have said this and tried to prove it, but to me the SBT, warts and all, stands as "implausible but possible" and probably the most likely explanation. To me, there are and always will be too many unknowns ever to say the SBT is definitely correct or definitely impossible. In the context of all else we know, it's a reasonable explanation.

What I don’t understand is why the debate continues on forums such as this, as though someone were going to say something new or startling at this point. I looked closely at the Knott Laboratory's study, and it seems to me to make assumptions about things that can’t possibly be known with the precision Knott claims. It was commissioned, moreover, by John Orr, who has been on an obsessive anti-SBT crusade for more than 30 years. I wonder how many people know that Orr’s theory, at least in 2013, had Oswald firing both the shot that hit JFK in the back and exited his throat and a separate shot that hit Connally in the back, as well as a third shot that missed; the head shot was (Orr says) a professional on top of what I take to be the Dal-Tex building. https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/how-i-investigated-president-john-f-kennedys-assassination. It’s difficult to believe that the paying client being a longtime anti-SBT crusader like Orr had no effect on Knott’s work.

In the nearly two years since the Knott study was published, it seems to have generated remarkably little interest apart from self-promotion by Knott. I found this comment at the Ed Forum by Tom Gram, who is certainly a sane and thorough researcher and who seems to share my concerns about the "precision" perhaps being more illusory than real.

The issue I think is that the limo and human models are just photogrammetry using the Zapruder film; so basically Dale Myers, and a few things don’t look particularly accurate. They have JFK way over on the edge of the car with his arm hanging over, shots at Z210 and Z225 which seems like an odd choice of frames for 2023, etc. etc.

One thing I’m surprised no one has commented on is it looks like they have the back wound positioned below the shoulder line and coming right out of the official exit on JFK’s neck. In that sense their model seems to support the SBT more than refute it.

On the other hand, I was astonished at a documentary that showed a Carcano bullet penetrating two feet into a pine board and remaining more pristine than CE 399.

If I remember correctly, and we are talking about the same documentary, it was practically 3-feet penetration.

Another thing that might astonish folks is the fact that a very similar rifle that shoots ammo with very similar characteristics and ballistics was one of three favorite rifles of W.D.M. Bell, who killed about 300 African elephants with it. This is one of his books. It can be had (as a kindle version) on Amazon for chump change.