JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate

The deformation of CE-399 adds credibility to the SBT

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Michael T. Griffith:

--- Quote from: Tom Graves on July 30, 2025, 06:58:58 PM ---The only hard bone that CE-399 hit was the radial bone in JBC’s wrist, and it hit it while it was twirling and with only the rear 1/3 of the bullet.
--- End quote ---

CE 399 didn't hit any bones in Connally because it was never in JFK. It never exited the shirt slits and could not have nicked the tie knot. Two Parkland medical staff confirmed that the nurses made the shirt slits, which is why no metallic traces were found around slits and why they had no fabric missing. This is not to mention that we have known for years now that the back wound had no exit point.

I'm just trying to fathom how you rationalize in your own mind your refusal to deal with the evidence that on the night of the autopsy the autopsy doctors positively, absolutely established that the back wound had no exit point. Even when trying to bend the facts to suit the lone-gunman theory, Humes was initially unwilling to say the throat wound was an exit wound for the back wound--instead, in a draft of the autopsy report, he said it was an exit hole for a fragment from the head shot.

And, FYI, the magic bullet would have had to smash Connally's fifth rib bone--specifically, to completely destroy 5 inches of that bone before ever reaching the radius bone in the wrist.


--- Quote from: Tom Graves on July 30, 2025, 06:58:58 PM ---What was the velocity of the test bullets when they hit the cadavers’ wrist?
--- End quote ---

Lattimer's SBT test and the AAT SBT test prove this is a non-issue. And, again, even bullets that were fired into cotton wadding emerged with more damage than CE 399.

Also, I take it you still haven't bothered to watch the documentary Reasonable Doubt?


--- Quote from: Tom Graves on July 30, 2025, 06:58:58 PM ---Had they already passed through something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck to slow them down and cause them to start tumbling?
--- End quote ---

I think you need to do some homework before you discuss the SBT on a public forum again. I suggest you start with John Hunt's superb article:

Breakability: CE-399 and the Diminishing Velocity Theory
https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm


--- Quote from: Tom Graves on July 30, 2025, 06:58:58 PM ---Where did I say CE-399 was tumbling while it was passing through JFK’s neck?
--- End quote ---

You didn't say this. You referred to after the bullet exits. But, other SBT believers have argued that the magic bullet caused the damage on the tip of T1, which would have caused the bullet to start tumbling or at least yawing substantially.


--- Quote from: Tom Graves on July 30, 2025, 06:58:58 PM ---Before CE-399, had forensic science ever tested or encountered a round-nosed Carcano bullet that had been fired through something soft -- like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck -- before it hit the intended target a couple of feet past said block of ballistics gel or human neck?

--- End quote ---

Again, see Hunt's article, for starters.

Tom Graves:

--- Quote from: Michael T. Griffith on July 30, 2025, 08:20:32 PM ---[...]

--- End quote ---

Griffith,

You're so full of KGB-approved beans, I can smell you from here.

The following is an excerpt from a post by Bill Roe at Quora eight months ago:

Even conspiracy advocate Dr. Cyril Wecht testified before the HSCA that he agreed a bullet entered Kennedy’s back and exited his throat. This would reasonably have caused it to begin tumbling or yawing (skewed) as it exited JFK and next entered Connally's back, causing an oblong round rather than a round that would be expected from a stable bullet entering straighter. Connally's oblong back entry wound is only consistent with a tumbling or yawing skewed bullet. Some have suggested the bullet was shot from a different angle that could also cause a similarly shaped entry wound but that would obviously have resulted in a very different path through Connally. The tumbling bullet would be expected to shed significant velocity as it passed through Connally's body, striking a rib before exiting an inch below his right nipple. Push on your own rib. The ribs are comparatively flexible so would not necessarily cause damage to the much harder full metal jacketed Carcano bullet. Dr. Shaw who operated on Connally's chest even explained the soft rib in his testimony and how the bullet struck the rib at a shallow angle and no metal was found in Connally's chest to indicate damage to the bullet from hitting the rib. The slowing bullet then exited Connally and entered and passed through Connally's wrist breaking the wrist bone before exiting and entering Connally's thigh where it stopped after penetrating only about a half inch. The main deformation to the bullet is at its base which is consistent with the bullet having rotated/tumbled as it passed through Connally which would slow the bullet.

As stated previously, bone will break at velocities as low as 163 fps which is consistent with a bullet shedding significant velocity as it passed through Kennedy and Connally. Obviously, there was little energy left after exiting the wrist since it caused only a shallow wound and fell out “somewhere" since it was not recovered in the OR.

Doctor Shaw who was operating on Connally said at a news conference while Connally was still in the OR that he believed all of Connally's wounds were from a single missile. The bullet passing through Kennedy only encountered soft tissue so would lose minimal speed. The Carcano bullet’s metal jacket would require significant force to become deformed. The damage to the back end of the bullet suggest it likely struck the wrist while at an angle rather than straight on further allowing it to rotate rather than deform. Still the bullet is noticeably deformed at its base and so must have struck bone. Note that no other bullet was recovered from Connally's shallow thigh wound so must have fallen out “somewhere”.

[...]

All of the forensic pathologists for the HSCA including well-known Warren Commision critic Dr Cyril Wecht agreed that Kennedy was struck in the back by a bullet that exited his throat. Dr. Wecht continues to argue against the single bullet but offered no reasonable explanation for what became of the bullet after passing through Kennedy. It seems only logical that it would have had to strike Connally. Wecht misrepresents the relative positions of Kennedy and Connally in his presentations and also claims Connally was struck around frame 238 rather than 223 as we see in the Zapruder clip. Prior to the public availability of the Zapruder film, most people were only able to see still frames which can be more difficult to understand than the slow-motion clips we now are now able to better micro-analyze. I imagine many people remain unaware that a bullet can break bone at lower velocities and that a full metal jacket bullet will easily pass through tissue and deform minimally at those same lower velocities.

[...]

Dr. Shaw, who operated on Governor Connally's chest wounds, testified that about four inches of a layer from the end of Connally's rib bone had been "stripped away" and would have caused very little defection to the bullet. He said that although the bullet struck near the forward end of the rib, it caused a fracture at the opposite end near where it attaches to the spine at the other end of the rib from where the bullet struck. He stated the bullet followed the rib's "line of inclination" meaning it was a glancing parallel hit or shallow angle along the side of the bone in the direction of the rib bone that he said "stripped away" about 10 cm (four inches) of rib, rather than a steep angle direct hit. Such a glancing blow on what Dr. Shaw described as "spongy" (flexible] area would not necessarily be expected to cause minimal if any deformation to a full metal jacked bullet.

Relevant quotes:

Dr. SHAW - The fact that the muscle bundles on either side of the fifth rib were not damaged meant that the missile to strip away 10 centimeters of the rib had to follow this rib pretty much along its line of inclination.

He further explained how that portion of the rib that was stripped away is soft and “spongy" (flexible) suggesting it would not likely cause much deformation to a full metal jacketed (fmj) bullet which is designed with a hard metal layer that resists deformation.

Dr. SHAW - The texture of the rib here is not of great density. The cortex of the rib in the lateral portions of our ribs, is thin with the so-called cancellus portion of the rib being very spongy, offering very little resistance to pressure or to fracturing.

Dan O'meara:

--- Quote from: John Mytton on July 30, 2025, 09:41:59 AM ---There is no doubt that the bullet found at Parkland was a whole bullet and at such an early point in time before the true extent of the injuries were known, what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision, missing a small amount of lead and flattened on only one side?



The CT scenario of a clairvoyant conspirator placing a random bullet, on a random stretcher, on a random floor and hoping that the random bullet would be consistent with the wounds and would be found and associated with this event, stretches the bounds of credibility.

Without a clue, which random bullet would YOU choose? Hmmm?



JohnM

--- End quote ---

"...what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision..."

This is one of those LNer "truths" I have never been able to get my head around.
How does CE399 "match the injuries"?
It is clearly the case, obvious to anyone with a grain of common sense, that CE399 had nothing to do with JBC's wrist injury. What evidence have LNers based their interpretation on, supporting the view that CE399 "matches the injuries"?

Jack Nessan:

--- Quote from: Dan O'meara on July 31, 2025, 10:55:28 AM ---"...what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision..."

This is one of those LNer "truths" I have never been able to get my head around.
How does CE399 "match the injuries"?
It is clearly the case, obvious to anyone with a grain of common sense, that CE399 had nothing to do with JBC's wrist injury. What evidence have LNers based their interpretation on, supporting the view that CE399 "matches the injuries"?

--- End quote ---

It is clearly the case, obvious to anyone with a grain of common sense, that CE399 had nothing to do with JBC's wrist injury. What evidence have LNers based their interpretation on, supporting the view that CE399 "matches the injuries"?

So, what you are insinuating is John and everyone else does not know, but you do know what the bullet should look like to match the injuries. Especially given the wrist injury.

Michael T. Griffith:
Dr. John Lattimer's SBT test was actually fairly realistic, but, as was his habit, he misrepresented the results by falsely claiming that his test produced a bullet with the same minimal damage as CE 399.

For his SBT test, Lattimer used animal tissue to simulate Kennedy's neck, a rib cage to simulate Connally's torso, and radius bones wrapped in simulated forearms to simulate Connally's forearm. Lattimer said four bullets out of 20 struck all three objects. A picture of one of the test bullets shows it was split at the nose in several places and was markedly deformed, much more deformed than CE 399. When Stewart Galanor asked Lattimer, in a filmed interview, if he could examine the bullets that struck all three simulation objects, Lattimer said he had thrown them away (Galanor, Cover-Up, New York: Kestrel Books, 1998, p. 42).

Or, let's take the 1967 CBS test when CBS hired Dr. Olivier to conduct a simulation of the SBT. The test was a complete sham because it simply ignored most of the damage that CE 399 supposedly did.

In a televised interview, Olivier admitted that his CBS test did not include striking a rib: "Of course, we have no rib here [in the test], but it still simulates passing through the flesh."

Olivier further admitted that even without simulating the damage to Connally's rib, some the bullets failed to exit the wrist: "In some cases, it passed through the wrist; in other cases it lodged in the wrist."

Crucially, not a single bullet in the CBS test managed to lodge in the simulated thigh.

A 12-inch gelatin block was used to simulate Connally's chest. By failing to put a simulated rib bone within this block, Olivier ensured that the test bullets would not become badly deformed while passing through the simulated chest. But this led to another complication: It meant the bullets would strike the simulated wrist at a greater velocity than the bullet presumed to have struck Connally's wrist--yet, even so, not one of the bullets lodged in the simulated thigh.

I should add that the CBS test also did not include passing through a human neck. Yes, that's right: The test made no effort to simulate the neck. Its bullets went straight into a simulated chest without first having to rip through a neck.

In 1968, a CBS producer named Stephen White wrote a book titled Should We Now Believe the Warren Report?, which brazenly misrepresented the CBS SBT test results, falsely claiming they proved the SBT was feasible. White also showed he knew little about wound ballistics.

White claimed "the Governor's chest wound was clearly caused by a bullet traveling at high velocity" (p. 71). But, the alleged murder file was a low-velocity weapon, as FBI firearms expert Robert Frazier admitted to the WC (3 H 414).

Incredibly, White claimed that CE 399 did not hit "a hard structure" during its alleged journey, bafflingly ignoring the fact that CE 399 supposedly destroyed 5 inches of rib bone and then smashed Connally's radius bone! Said White,

"A full-jacketed bullet, wholly sheathed in copper, which does not make direct impact
with hard structure can go a long way and do a good deal of damage without showing
much effect. . . . The bullet, with its tough protective shield, was never subjected to an
abrupt change of momentum. . . . There were at no time forces exerted upon it
sufficient to deform it to any great extent; merely continuous small forces which
robbed it bit by bit of its energy" (p 92).

White falsely claimed that "CBS News went to some great pains to recreate a part of the path taken by the bullet, using carefully measured blocks of gelatin to simulate the resistance offered by tissue, and other artifacts to represent clothing and bone structure." Was White just not aware that the test did not simulate the neck and the rib bone?

White then claimed that the CBS test proved the SBT was plausible. He wrote that under the circumstances people could not expect "precise results" from the CBS test, and that the "approximate answer" was "entirely consistent, within its margin of error, with the single-bullet theory." Right, so even though the test failed to simulate a human neck and a rib bone, and even though some of the bullets failed to exit the wrist, and even though not one of the bullets lodged in the thigh, the test was "entirely consistent" with the SBT!

In 2003, the Discovery Channel created a similar simulation, with similar results. Once again, a bullet, without being asked to strike any simulated ribs at the exit point of a simulated chest, bounced off a simulated thigh, yet the program declared that it duplicated the SBT.

Pat Speer explains why the failure of these tests is not surprising, noting that world-famous forensic pathologist Dr. Milton Helpern dismissed the SBT as abjectly impossible:

The failure of these tests, moreover, should come as no surprise. In 1967, in the book
Where Death Delights, Dr. Milton Helpern, a man who had supervised 10,000 autopsies
on gunshot victims, explained why these tests were doomed to failure. He said:

“The single-bullet theory requires us to believe that this bullet went through seven
layers of skin—tough, elastic, resistant skin. . . . In addition to these seven layers
of tough, human skin, this bullet passed through other layers of soft tissue, and then
these shattered bones! I just can’t believe that this bullet had the force to do what
Mr. Specter and the Commission have demanded of it."

And it's not as if Helpern was just blowing smoke. In 1987, in a much-discussed letter
to the International Defense Review, Dr. Martin Fackler gave substance to
Dr. Helpern's observations by reporting his conclusion that human skin had the approximate
resistance of four inches of muscle tissue. Yes, that's right. Seven layers of skin have the
resistance of 28 inches of muscle tissue. This suggests, then, that Olivier's tests for CBS
quite possibly under-represented the amount of resistance encountered by the so-called
magic bullet. (https://www.patspeer.com/chapter11thesingle-bullettheory)

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