JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
The deformation of CE-399 adds credibility to the SBT
Tom Graves:
Given the fact that that kind of bullet has a tendency to start tumbling / yawing when it exits something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck, the unusual deformation of CE-399 lends credence to the so-called Single Bullet Theory.
John Mytton:
--- Quote from: Tom Graves on July 30, 2025, 04:22:08 AM ---Given the fact that that kind of bullet has a tendency to start tumbling when it exits something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck, the unusual deformation of CE-399 lends credence to the so-called Single Bullet Theory.
--- End quote ---
There is no doubt that the bullet found at Parkland was a whole bullet and at such an early point in time before the true extent of the injuries were known, what are the chances that someone could produce a bullet that would match the injuries with such precision, missing a small amount of lead and flattened on only one side?
The CT scenario of a clairvoyant conspirator placing a random bullet, on a random stretcher, on a random floor and hoping that the random bullet would be consistent with the wounds and would be found and associated with this event, stretches the bounds of credibility.
Without a clue, which random bullet would YOU choose? Hmmm?
JohnM
Michael T. Griffith:
--- Quote from: Tom Graves on July 30, 2025, 04:22:08 AM ---Given the fact that that kind of bullet has a tendency to start tumbling when it exits something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck, the unusual deformation of CE-399 lends credence to the so-called Single Bullet Theory.
--- End quote ---
This is inexcusably erroneous. I am led to wonder if you have ever read anything except pro-WC sources. A few well-known facts:
-- In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformation than CE 399.
-- In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cadaver wrists emerged with far more deformation than CE 399 and also lost at least 12 grains of their substance. See the interview with Dr. Joseph Dolce, the Army's leading wound ballistics expert and the man who conducted the WC's SBT test, in the 1988 documentary Reasonable Doubt (link below).
-- If the mythical magic bullet was tumbling through JFK's neck, how in the world could it have made a small (3-5 mm), neat, punched-in wound in the throat as it exited?
-- The alleged exit hole in JFK's shirt consisted of two irregular slits that were cut by nurses, which explains why the FBI found no metallic traces around the slits but did find metallic traces around the entry holes in JFK's shirt and coat.
-- The front shirt slits were below the interior of the collar band and were parallel to the lower part of the edges of the collar band. This proves that any bullet exiting those slits would have had to tear through the middle part of JFK's tie knot, which we know from the photographic evidence was neatly centered between the edges of the collar band. However, there was no hole in the tie, only a small nick on the left edge of the knot.
-- No bullet that exited the shirt slits could have magically weaved around the body of the tie knot and nicked the knot's left edge. It would have torn straight through the middle part of the knot.
-- No FMJ bullet in the known history of forensic science has done the damage attributed to CE 399 and yet emerged with its lands and grooves intact and with no more than 3-4 grains missing from its substance.
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygY7Jerm1Pk
Tom Graves:
--- Quote ---In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformation than CE 399.
--- End quote ---
The only hard bone that CE-399 hit was the radial bone in JBC’s wrist, and it hit it while it was twirling and with only the rear 1/3 of the bullet.
--- Quote ---In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cadaver wrists emerged with far more deformation than CE 399 and also lost at least 12 grains of their substance.
--- End quote ---
What was the velocity of the test bullets when they hit the cadavers’ wrist?
Had they already passed through something soft like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck to slow them down and cause them to start tumbling?
--- Quote ---If the mythical magic bullet was tumbling through JFK's neck, how in the world could it have made a small (3-5 mm), neat, punched-in wound in the throat as it exited?
--- End quote ---
Where did I say CE-399 was tumbling while it was passing through JFK’s neck?
--- Quote ---No FMJ bullet in the known history of forensic science has done the damage attributed to CE 399 and yet emerged with its lands and grooves intact and with no more than 3-4 grains missing from its substance.
--- End quote ---
Before CE-399, had forensic science ever tested or encountered a round-nosed Carcano bullet that had been fired through something soft -- like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck -- before it hit the intended target a couple of feet past said block of ballistics gel or human neck?
Tim Nickerson:
--- Quote from: Michael T. Griffith on July 30, 2025, 01:04:30 PM ---This is inexcusably erroneous. I am led to wonder if you have ever read anything except pro-WC sources. A few well-known facts:
-- In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cotton wadding emerged with more deformation than CE 399.
--- End quote ---
In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets were fired into cotton wadding at near muzzle velocity of the rifle.
--- Quote ----- In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cadaver wrists emerged with far more deformation than CE 399 and also lost at least 12 grains of their substance. See the interview with Dr. Joseph Dolce, the Army's leading wound ballistics expert and the man who conducted the WC's SBT test, in the 1988 documentary Reasonable Doubt (link below).
--- End quote ---
In the WC's wound ballistics tests, FMJ bullets that were fired into cadaver wrists at near muzzle velocity of the rifle. Dr. Joseph Dolce was not the Army's leading wound ballistics expert. Nor did he conduct the WC's SBT test.
"Earlier, the FBI inadvertently proved that cotton waste, when compressed as it builds up on a penetrating bullet, is denser than soft tissue. They did this by firing WCC/MC bullets from the Oswald rifle into cotton waste at muzzle velocity. They were trying to recover undeformed bullets fired from the Oswald rifle. Such bullets were needed as ballistic standards with which to compare CE 399 and the fragments recovered from the floor of the limousine to determine whether they were fired from Oswald's weapon. The bullets they recovered in this manner were suitable as standards, but were deformed to a greater extent than CE 399. This point was missed entirely by Dr. Wecht in his HSCA testimony when he used the picture reproduced as figure 4 that contains those bullets. He claimed that the deformation in cotton waste proved that CE 399 did not smash the Governor's wrist since it would have been deformed more in the "hard bone". He considered the effect of strength and, perhaps, density of the target on deformation---but not the much greater effect of velocity." -- Larry Sturdivan, The JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination, pages 130 and 131.
https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Myths-Scientific-Investigation-Assassination/dp/1557788472
--- Quote ----- If the mythical magic bullet was tumbling through JFK's neck, how in the world could it have made a small (3-5 mm), neat, punched-in wound in the throat as it exited?
--- End quote ---
The bullet was not tumbling through JFK's neck. It began tumbling upon exiting.
--- Quote ----- The alleged exit hole in JFK's shirt consisted of two irregular slits that were cut by nurses, which explains why the FBI found no metallic traces around the slits but did find metallic traces around the entry holes in JFK's shirt and coat.
--- End quote ---
Mr. FRAZIER - In each instance for these holes, the one through the button line and the one through the buttonhole line, the hole amounts to a ragged slit approximately one-half inch in height. It is oriented vertically, and the fibers of the cloth are protruding outward, that is, have been pushed from the inside out. I could not actually determine from the characteristics of the hole whether or not it was caused by a bullet. However, I can say that it was caused by a projectile of some type which exited from the shirt at that point and that is again assuming that when I first examined the shirt it was--it had not been altered from the condition it was in at the time the hole was made.
No metallic residue would be expected to be found around the exit hole.
--- Quote ----- The front shirt slits were below the interior of the collar band and were parallel to the lower part of the edges of the collar band. This proves that any bullet exiting those slits would have had to tear through the middle part of JFK's tie knot, which we know from the photographic evidence was neatly centered between the edges of the collar band. However, there was no hole in the tie, only a small nick on the left edge of the knot.
-- No bullet that exited the shirt slits could have magically weaved around the body of the tie knot and nicked the knot's left edge. It would have torn straight through the middle part of the knot.
--- End quote ---
You are falsely assuming that the bullet would have had to pass though the middle of the tie knot.
Mr. FRAZIER - When the tie was examined by me in the laboratory I noted that the neck portion had been cut from one side of the knot. However, the knot remained in apparently its original condition. The only damage to the tie other than the fact that it had been cut, was a crease or nick in the left side of the tie when you consider the tie as being worn on a body. As you view the front of the tie it would be on the right side. This nick would be located in a corresponding area to the area in the shirt collar just below the button.
Mr. SPECTER - As you now indicate on your own tie, you are indicating on the portion of the tie to your right?
Mr. FRAZIER - If it was on my tie it would be on the left side of the tie.
Mr. SPECTER - Your left side.
Mr. FRAZIER - The left side of my tie. There is a nick on the left side of the tie if you consider it as left and right according to the person wearing the tie.
Mr. SPECTER - Does the nick in the tie provide any indication of the direction of the missile?
Mr. FRAZIER - The nick is elongated horizontally, indicating a possible horizontal direction but it does not indicate that the projectile which caused it was exiting or entering at that point. The fibers were not disturbed in a characteristic manner which would permit any conclusion in that connection.
Mr. SPECTER - Is the nick consistent with an exiting path?
Mr. FRAZIER - Oh, yes.
--- Quote ----- No FMJ bullet in the known history of forensic science has done the damage attributed to CE 399 and yet emerged with its lands and grooves intact and with no more than 3-4 grains missing from its substance.
--- End quote ---
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/pdf/fackler.pdf
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