A rational solution to the "shipping casket" factoid?

[Lance Payette]

I have now spent an additional hour on this issue. FWIW, I discovered that in a 2024 piece at Kennedys & King, conspiracy god James DiEugenio describes Boyajian as "not reliable," notes (as I did) that Boyajian never says "the casket" arriving at 6:35 PM was JFK's, and seems to go so far as to suggest the unsigned Boyajian report is bogus. Well, how rude. I won't go that far. I also note that Dennis David was likewise not told that the casket was JFK's. He was told "your visitor has arrived."

But forget all that. I think Boyajian and David were operating on the basis of good faith - but mistaken - assumptions that the shipping casket contained JFK's body. I suspect - stay with me here - it was EMPTY but was indeed delivered in connection with JFK's body. After I had this epiphany, I discovered that good old Harold Weisberg had reached the same conclusion way back in 1990. Well, if researchers of the caliber of Old Harold (RIP) and Old Lance think alike on an issue, you can pretty well take their conclusions to the bank - no?

The original plan, up until very late in the afternoon of 11-22, was that the embalming of JFK would take place at Gawler's funeral home, not at Bethesda. The Military District of Washington (MDW) had actually sent personnel to Gawler's and set up a command post in anticipation of this. Jackie was apparently adamant that it would not take place there, so Gawler's had to scramble and send portable embalming equipment to Bethesda. Some members of Gawler's embalming team may have arrived as early as 8 PM, others around 11 PM, but in any event by the time they arrived JFK was out of any casket and on the autopsy table. Sometime before 11 PM, Kennedy aides arrived at Gawler's and selected the mahogany burial casket, which was then transported to Bethesda in Gawler's hearse (the damaged and badly stained Dallas casket going back to Gawler's).

No one from Gawler's had any idea as to how JFK's body had arrived at Bethesda. The famed Gawler's "First Call Sheet" that says "body removed from metal shipping casket at USNH at Bethesda," https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md129/html/md129_0001a.htm, was in Joe Hagan's handwriting. Hagan described to Doug Horne that this was just an assumption on his part because he was told at some point (not necessarily 11-22) that the body had arrived in a "metal" casket - which the bronze casket from Dallas indeed was. You can find all this in Doug Horne's notes of his conversations with Hagan in April, May and June of 1996, which he seems to have conveniently forgotten in his enthusiasm for the body alteration theory: https://www.washingtondecoded.com/files/md182-1.pdf.

Now back to Old Harold: He discovered that it was standard operating procedure for a metal shipping casket to be delivered to EVERY military autopsy. It would be used to transport the autopsied body to the funeral home. He had no doubt that one had been delivered to Bethesda as reported by Boyajian, nor do I. He thus thought, as do I, that the shipping casket brouhaha was the proverbial Much Ado About Nothing.

Surely, an EMPTY metal shipping casket was delivered to Bethesda by the MDW at 6:35 in the expectation that JFK's body would be going to Gawler's for embalming. Hagan made clear to Horne that the very first call relating to JFK was received at 4:25, things were in a state of flux and confusion, and the call instructing Gawler's not to send a hearse to Andrews AFB was made at the "last minute." It is entirely plausible that, at 6:35, the MDW folks responsible for taking a shipping casket to Bethesda in accordance with standard operating procedure would not have been aware that the embalming would take place at Bethesda. Those like Boyajian and David who thought it contained JFK's body were simply and understandably mistaken. (David became such a conspiracy fixture, with some of his "memories" recovered under hypnosis, that I am less inclined to be charitable toward him.)

You're welcome. Next factoid, please.

[Lance Payette]

The MDW does provide support for military funerals in Washington and thus would likely have been involved in providing a shipping casket to Bethesda: https://jtfncr.mdw.army.mil/statefunerals/

The mysterious guys with the black hearse were surely MDW personnel.

A metal shipping casket can weigh around 200 pounds empty.

[Royell Storing]

  Humes gave sworn testimony before the ARRB. During this testimony Humes was asked when he 1st saw the body of JFK. Humes said that he 1st saw the JFK body between 18:45- 19:00. This corroborates the Boyajian's 18:30 military documentation. Horne should have mentioned this.

[Lance Payette]

Humes gave sworn testimony before the ARRB. During this testimony Humes was asked when he 1st saw the body of JFK. Humes said that he 1st saw the JFK body between 18:45- 19:00. This corroborates the Boyajian's 18:30 military documentation. Horne should have mentioned this.

This is a half-truth at best and yet another example of why playing Whack-a-Mole with rabid CTers becomes so tiresome. Here is the entire 242-page transcript, in which Humes acquits himself very nicely IMO: https://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/arrb/medical_testimony/pdf/Humes_2-13-96.pdf/.

On page 66, he gives the following answer to the question as to when he first saw JFK's body:

"I didn't look at my watch, if I even had a watch on, but I would guess it was 6:45 or 7 o'clock, something like that, approximately."

Not exactly definitive. Alas for you, he then goes on to describe the body being delivered by a gray Navy ambulance and he and Dr. Boswell removing it from the Dallas casket. He describes the body being wrapped precisely as it was at Parkland.

Oops - for you and Doug Horne. No surprise why Horne doesn't mention Humes' testimony, eh? (And Horne was there during the deposition!)

At the Warren Commission, 30+ years earlier, Humes had testified "the President's body was received at 25 minutes before 8" and "was wrapped in a sheet labeled by the Parkland Hospital." More oops for you.

At the HSCA in 1978, Humes recalled that the body arrived "right about 7:35, 7:40 in the evening." More oops for you.

When Boswell testified to the ARRB, he described the body arriving in the Dallas casket and specifically took issue with all the goofy casket/body stories being circulated. Horne was at this deposition as well: https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/arrb/medical_testimony/pdf/Boswell_2-26-96.pdf.

Look, this body alteration stuff is blatant nonsense. If you don't realize that, something is very wrong with your critical-thinking skills. Interjecting half-truths doesn't help your cause.

[Tim Nickerson]

I have now spent an additional hour on this issue. FWIW, I discovered that in a 2024 piece at Kennedys & King, conspiracy god James DiEugenio describes Boyajian as "not reliable," notes (as I did) that Boyajian never says "the casket" arriving at 6:35 PM was JFK's, and seems to go so far as to suggest the unsigned Boyajian report is bogus. Well, how rude. I won't go that far. I also note that Dennis David was likewise not told that the casket was JFK's. He was told "your visitor has arrived."

But forget all that. I think Boyajian and David were operating on the basis of good faith - but mistaken - assumptions that the shipping casket contained JFK's body. I suspect - stay with me here - it was EMPTY but was indeed delivered in connection with JFK's body. After I had this epiphany, I discovered that good old Harold Weisberg had reached the same conclusion way back in 1990. Well, if researchers of the caliber of Old Harold (RIP) and Old Lance think alike on an issue, you can pretty well take their conclusions to the bank - no?

The original plan, up until very late in the afternoon of 11-22, was that the embalming of JFK would take place at Gawler's funeral home, not at Bethesda. The Military District of Washington (MDW) had actually sent personnel to Gawler's and set up a command post in anticipation of this. Jackie was apparently adamant that it would not take place there, so Gawler's had to scramble and send portable embalming equipment to Bethesda. Some members of Gawler's embalming team may have arrived as early as 8 PM, others around 11 PM, but in any event by the time they arrived JFK was out of any casket and on the autopsy table. Sometime before 11 PM, Kennedy aides arrived at Gawler's and selected the mahogany burial casket, which was then transported to Bethesda in Gawler's hearse (the damaged and badly stained Dallas casket going back to Gawler's).

No one from Gawler's had any idea as to how JFK's body had arrived at Bethesda. The famed Gawler's "First Call Sheet" that says "body removed from metal shipping casket at USNH at Bethesda," https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md129/html/md129_0001a.htm, was in Joe Hagan's handwriting. Hagan described to Doug Horne that this was just an assumption on his part because he was told at some point (not necessarily 11-22) that the body had arrived in a "metal" casket - which the bronze casket from Dallas indeed was. You can find all this in Doug Horne's notes of his conversations with Hagan in April, May and June of 1996, which he seems to have conveniently forgotten in his enthusiasm for the body alteration theory: https://www.washingtondecoded.com/files/md182-1.pdf.

Now back to Old Harold: He discovered that it was standard operating procedure for a metal shipping casket to be delivered to EVERY military autopsy. It would be used to transport the autopsied body to the funeral home. He had no doubt that one had been delivered to Bethesda as reported by Boyajian, nor do I. He thus thought, as do I, that the shipping casket brouhaha was the proverbial Much Ado About Nothing.

Surely, an EMPTY metal shipping casket was delivered to Bethesda by the MDW at 6:35 in the expectation that JFK's body would be going to Gawler's for embalming. Hagan made clear to Horne that the very first call relating to JFK was received at 4:25, things were in a state of flux and confusion, and the call instructing Gawler's not to send a hearse to Andrews AFB was made at the "last minute." It is entirely plausible that, at 6:35, the MDW folks responsible for taking a shipping casket to Bethesda in accordance with standard operating procedure would not have been aware that the embalming would take place at Bethesda. Those like Boyajian and David who thought it contained JFK's body were simply and understandably mistaken. (David became such a conspiracy fixture, with some of his "memories" recovered under hypnosis, that I am less inclined to be charitable toward him.)

You're welcome. Next factoid, please.

I hadn't given much thought to the casket in the Boyajian report being an empty one being delivered in connection with JFK's body. Now, I'm leaning strongly to that being the case. It may be worth noting that Boyajian himself was not there when that "empty" casket arrived at Bethesda. He never saw the casket himself.

[Royell Storing]

  Humes NEVER saw the ambulance delivering the casket. He was inside the Bethesda morgue.
  Saying "the body was received" is not the same as Humes answering the question, "When did you 1st SEE the body?". Big difference and Humes knows the difference. Gunn did too. This is why he asked about a "1st SEE".

[Lance Payette]

  Humes NEVER saw the ambulance delivering the casket. He was inside the Bethesda morgue.
  Saying "the body was received" is not the same as Humes answering the question, "When did you 1st SEE the body?". Big difference and Humes knows the difference. Gunn did too. This is why he asked about a "1st SEE".

Good Lord, give it up. I have no idea what point you think you are making. Humes first saw the body when he opened the Dallas casket. You are the one insisting his ARRB testimony of seeing the body at approximately (very approximately) 6:45 or 7 somehow supported Horne and Boyajian's description of the arrival of a shipping casket at 6:35. You seemingly saw the coincidence between 6:35 and Humes' ARRB testimony as some sort of smoking gun. What are you now suggesting - the body was received in a shipping casket at 6:35 and tampered with by someone else before it was put back into the Dallas casket in its Parkland wrappings for Humes and Boswell to open at 6:45 or 7??? What the hell sense does that make? I simply pointed out that Humes' testimony at the WC and HSCA was consistent about the body arriving in the Dallas casket shortly before the autopsy began at around 8 and that his very uncertain time estimate in 1996 was some 33 years after the event and he made clear that he had done no preparation at all.

My belief is that an empty shipping casket was indeed delivered by MDW at 6:35 but was never used because a decision was made that the embalming would take place at Bethesda rather than Gawler's, the Dallas casket with JFK's body arrived sometime around 7:17, and Humes participated in opening the casket shortly thereafter. Not sexy enough for CTers, I know, but not bat guano crazy either.

[Mitch Todd]

I have now spent an additional hour on this issue. FWIW, I discovered that in a 2024 piece at Kennedys & King, conspiracy god James DiEugenio describes Boyajian as "not reliable," notes (as I did) that Boyajian never says "the casket" arriving at 6:35 PM was JFK's, and seems to go so far as to suggest the unsigned Boyajian report is bogus. Well, how rude. I won't go that far. I also note that Dennis David was likewise not told that the casket was JFK's. He was told "your visitor has arrived."

But forget all that. I think Boyajian and David were operating on the basis of good faith - but mistaken - assumptions that the shipping casket contained JFK's body. I suspect - stay with me here - it was EMPTY but was indeed delivered in connection with JFK's body. After I had this epiphany, I discovered that good old Harold Weisberg had reached the same conclusion way back in 1990. Well, if researchers of the caliber of Old Harold (RIP) and Old Lance think alike on an issue, you can pretty well take their conclusions to the bank - no?

The original plan, up until very late in the afternoon of 11-22, was that the embalming of JFK would take place at Gawler's funeral home, not at Bethesda. The Military District of Washington (MDW) had actually sent personnel to Gawler's and set up a command post in anticipation of this. Jackie was apparently adamant that it would not take place there, so Gawler's had to scramble and send portable embalming equipment to Bethesda. Some members of Gawler's embalming team may have arrived as early as 8 PM, others around 11 PM, but in any event by the time they arrived JFK was out of any casket and on the autopsy table. Sometime before 11 PM, Kennedy aides arrived at Gawler's and selected the mahogany burial casket, which was then transported to Bethesda in Gawler's hearse (the damaged and badly stained Dallas casket going back to Gawler's).

No one from Gawler's had any idea as to how JFK's body had arrived at Bethesda. The famed Gawler's "First Call Sheet" that says "body removed from metal shipping casket at USNH at Bethesda," https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md129/html/md129_0001a.htm, was in Joe Hagan's handwriting. Hagan described to Doug Horne that this was just an assumption on his part because he was told at some point (not necessarily 11-22) that the body had arrived in a "metal" casket - which the bronze casket from Dallas indeed was. You can find all this in Doug Horne's notes of his conversations with Hagan in April, May and June of 1996, which he seems to have conveniently forgotten in his enthusiasm for the body alteration theory: https://www.washingtondecoded.com/files/md182-1.pdf.

Now back to Old Harold: He discovered that it was standard operating procedure for a metal shipping casket to be delivered to EVERY military autopsy. It would be used to transport the autopsied body to the funeral home. He had no doubt that one had been delivered to Bethesda as reported by Boyajian, nor do I. He thus thought, as do I, that the shipping casket brouhaha was the proverbial Much Ado About Nothing.

Surely, an EMPTY metal shipping casket was delivered to Bethesda by the MDW at 6:35 in the expectation that JFK's body would be going to Gawler's for embalming. Hagan made clear to Horne that the very first call relating to JFK was received at 4:25, things were in a state of flux and confusion, and the call instructing Gawler's not to send a hearse to Andrews AFB was made at the "last minute." It is entirely plausible that, at 6:35, the MDW folks responsible for taking a shipping casket to Bethesda in accordance with standard operating procedure would not have been aware that the embalming would take place at Bethesda. Those like Boyajian and David who thought it contained JFK's body were simply and understandably mistaken. (David became such a conspiracy fixture, with some of his "memories" recovered under hypnosis, that I am less inclined to be charitable toward him.)

You're welcome. Next factoid, please.

A few things to remember:

1.) There is no kind of casket called a "shipping casket." The military term for the item is a "Human Remains Transit Case." It's not a casket, per se, as it's not intended to be used for burials, but to transport human bodies (and be reused). There are civilian analogues, particularly the "Ziegler case" that do the same thing, and are also not considered to be caskets. While Hagen did write "shipping casket," he explained that the term referred literally to a casket in which the body was shipped. That is, JFK was shipped in casket, not a case, and Hagen should know the difference. "Shipping casket" is a personal term invented by Paul O'Connor, as he says in the Best Evidence research video. It's interesting that O'Connor didn't use any variation of "transit case," implying that he had little, maybe no, experience with them while a corpsman.

2.)  Eaglesham and Palmer looked into Dennis David's stories about William Pitzer's death and found that every claim made by David was simply wrong. When they found an officer at Bethesda that could corroborate anything Dennis David said, and wanted him to help them contact her to verify his story, David cut off all contact with them. Later, they sent him a message that they had discovered that she had died, and he immediately went back to being buddy-buddy with them. A guilty conscience, and all that. Dennis David was nothing more than a fabulist.

3.) Now, some will try to rehabilitate David with the story told by Rebentisch, but the two stories are fatally different. According to David, he didn't know that the casket his team was bringing in contained the President until well after 11/22. In Rebentisch's version, everyone in his crew knew from the very beginning that JFK was going to be in the casket that they were going to handle. In Rebentisch's account, this casket arrived in a '58 chevy. David said it came in a Cadillac. It's worth mentioning that David and Rebentisch served together and El Toro and, per Lifton, knew each other well enough to know the other's wife's name. The two accounts cannot then be depended on to be independent of each other.

4.) In Boyajian's report, Boyajian divided his command into two groups. One (led by Boyajian himself) patrolled the hallways of Bethesda, keeping unauthorized personnel away from the morgue area. A second group "was to have been used as a cordon about the ambulance to keep newsmen from interfering with the movement of the casket." Note the phrase "was to have ben used." The only time people say it that way is when you know that someone is supposed to do something, but either you don't know if they did it, or you know that they didn't. Consequently, Boyajian could not have known either firsthand nor via his "casket team" when the casket was brought in. Manchester reported that when Sam Bird's joint casket team landed and disembarked from their helicopters at 6:40PM, they were swarmed by newsmen and photographers who thought that the casket was on board with them. It may be as simple as Boyajian hearing the helicoptery commotion outside, he also presumed that the body arrived.