JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
The Entrance Wound in the Throat, the Front Shirt Slits, and Tie Knot Nick
Michael T. Griffith:
--- Quote from: Lance Payette on July 26, 2025, 11:42:51 PM ---We don't really "know" this, do we? There is nothing to this effect in the ARRB final report, which does highlight what was learned about the autopsy. Aren't what you are calling "ARRB disclosures" actually more like "Doug Horne's speculation" in this 1996 memorandum: https://documents3.theblackvault.com/documents/jfkfiles/NARA-Oct2017/ARRB/TEAMA/MEDICAL/CHAIN2.WPD.pdf.
--- End quote ---
Actually, yes, we most certainly do know this. Your reply leads me to wonder what you have read on the subject. Just from the 1/27/64 WC executive session transcript alone we know this. Rankin referred to a version of the autopsy report that said the throat wound was made by a fragment from the head shot. Boggs then referred to the FBI report on the autopsy, which said the back wound had no exit point. Multiple official leaks on the autopsy, published soon after the autopsy, said the throat wound was the exit point for a head-shot fragment, and the 1/27/64 WC executive session transcript confirms that those leaks came from sources who had read an early draft of the autopsy report, the same one that Rankin cited.
The ARRB final report said nothing about the vast majority of the historic disclosures from the released autopsy-related files and from the new autopsy witness interviews. The ARRB board members knew little about this evidence. I doubt they even read the released documents and the interview transcripts.
I suggest you sit down and actually watch Doug Horne's detailed and documented video on this evidence: The Evolving JFK Autopsy Report:
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yEugT91vq8
Joffrey van de Wiel:
Mr. Griffith,
Thank you for an interesting OP. I agree with your statements on the cause for the slits in the shirt collar and the nick on the tie. However, I think a number of questions arise from the notion that the throat wound was an entrance wound:
1) the size and shape of the wound; 3 to 5 mm, almost circular. What conclusions can you arrive at using these parameters regarding the caliber of the weapon and the location of the assassin?
2) where did the bullet go after it entered the anterior neck?
3) Do you think Dr. Humes et al were correct in their hypothesis that the bullet that entered the president's back had no point of exit and had fallen out during external cardiac massage? Could this be CE 399? This is in fact my own theory, and it gets rid of ridiculous 'planting' of evidence considerations. But will it damage the chain of custody of CE 399?
4) Dr. Burkley, in JFK's death certificate which the Warren Commission overlooked and forgot to publish, stated the back wound was located at the level of the T3 vertebrae. Do you think that is accurate?
I am here to learn something on the assassination and hope you will be able to answer my questions.
Michael T. Griffith:
--- Quote from: Tim Nickerson on July 31, 2025, 06:56:28 PM ---"If a bullet goes through multiple layers of cloth, bullet wipe may be present only around the defect in the cloth that was perforated first." -- pages 354 and 355 of Gunshot Wounds: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques. by Vincent J. M. Di Maio, M.D.
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Oh, now you're willing to listen to DiMaio! You've ignored the fact that DiMaio said that an x-ray that shows a cluster of numerous tiny fragments rules out FMJ ammo, and that when FMJ bullets do fragment, even when they penetrate bone, the fragments will be "very sparse in number." In fact, let's read him again on this point:
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet . . .
usually fails to reveal any bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has
perforated bone such as the skull or spine.If any fragments
are seen, they are very sparse in number. . . .(p. 166)
Yet, the JFK skull x-rays show a "snow storm" of numerous tiny fragments in the right frontal region and a number of fragments to the left of the cluster that trail upward and backward without reaching the rear of the skull--the exact opposite of what DiMaio said we'll see in x-rays of people shot with FMJ bullets.
Anyway, regarding DiMaio's comment about bullets leaving metallic traces as they go through "multiple layers of cloth," we're talking about the third layer of clothing. And notice that DiMaio did not say it was the norm for bullets to leave bullet wipe only around the cloth layer that was first penetrated. He said this "may" happen, not that it normally happens.
Furthermore, let's keep in mind that the FBI lab initially said the slits looked like they were made by a fragment, not by a whole bullet, and said nothing about the fibers being bent outward. And then there is the crucial fact that no fabric was missing from the slits, a clear indicator that no projectile created the slits. Of course, we know that no bullet made the slits because we know that the Parkland nurses made the slits and nicked the tie knot when they hurriedly cutting away JFK's clothing.
--- Quote from: Tim Nickerson on July 31, 2025, 06:56:28 PM ---"The nine representative rounds of 9mm Luger ammunition were fired into 100% white cotton t-shirts, fitted over a device to approximate body torso thickness, at a muzzle to target distance of six feet (72 inches) in a manner that created an entrance hole in the front and an exit hole in the back of the t-shirt for each shot. All nine bullet entrance holes and exit holes were subjected to XRF analysis. Entrance hole residues ranged in lead concentration levels from 190 parts per million (ppm) to over 1,000 ppm while exit hole residue lead levels ranged from zero to 74 ppm. In all cases, entrance hole lead concentrations were at least six times higher than exit hole lead levels." (https://www.aafs.org/sites/default/files/media/documents/AAFS-2009-A181.pdf)
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I guess you failed to notice when you read this article that in every single case, including in the test firing that you didn't mention, the bullets created "holes" when they exited the clothing, not vertical slits with no fabric missing.
Anyway, it's too bad the author did not specify how many of the nine bullets failed to leave any traces of lead. Her wording suggests that the majority of the bullets left lead traces around the exit holes.
When are you guys going to face the determinative fact that the tie had no hole in it, and that no bullet exiting the front shirt slits could have magically weaved around the body of the tie knot and nicked the knot, especially since the nick is actually not on the left edge of the knot but only near the left edge? Even if we assume the tie was untied and then retied before the evidence photos were taken, and that the nick was originally on the knot's left edge, there is still no way that a bullet exiting the slits could have maneuvered around the body of the knot to nick its left edge--it would have had to tear through the knot. The FBI fought so doggedly to keep all the tie photos from being released because they knew they would reveal that the tie had no hole in it. There was a reason the WC's photos of the tie were poor in quality and did not show any closeup views (CEs 394 and 395). There was also a reason the WC did not include the photo of the shirt slits among its published exhibits.
Tim Nickerson:
--- Quote from: Michael T. Griffith on August 06, 2025, 01:27:03 PM ---Oh, now you're willing to listen to DiMaio! You've ignored the fact that DiMaio said that an x-ray that shows a cluster of numerous tiny fragments rules out FMJ ammo, and that when FMJ bullets do fragment, even when they penetrate bone, the fragments will be "very sparse in number." In fact, let's read him again on this point:
An x-ray of an individual shot with a full metal-jacketed rifle bullet . . .
usually fails to reveal any bullet fragments at all even if the bullet has
perforated bone such as the skull or spine.If any fragments
are seen, they are very sparse in number. . . .(p. 166)
--- End quote ---
DiMaio didn't say that an x-ray that shows a cluster of numerous tiny fragments rules out FMJ ammo. In fact, he said that there are some FMJs that will massively fragment, even without penetrating bone.
Joffrey van de Wiel:
--- Quote from: Michael T. Griffith on August 05, 2025, 04:58:00 PM ---
I suggest you sit down and actually watch Doug Horne's detailed and documented video on this evidence: The Evolving JFK Autopsy Report:
--- End quote ---
Thanks for the link to the Horne presentation. I have to watch it again to take it all in as it lasts for more than an hour. One peculiar paragraph in the autopsy report, CE 387, page 4, deserves some attention. Dr. Humes wrote
The second wound presumably of entry is that described above in the upper right posterior thorax.
The wound presumably of exit was that described by Dr. Malcolm Malcolm Perry of Dallas in the low anterior cervical region.
I have emphasized the word presumably twice. English is not my primary language, but when i google translate it, the synonyms are probably, likely, maybe. It seems therefore that the conclusions regarding entry and exit are less based on certainty than perhaps desirable in the homicide of a president.
Another aspect of the autopsy report is that of the 88 facts stated, only 24 have a basis in the notes of the pathologist. 68 have no basis at all.
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