JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
The Warren Commission Sham
Lance Payette:
At the risk of my sanity, I have forced myself to read this entire thread.
--- Quote from: Dan O'meara on March 26, 2025, 05:53:53 PM ---
Why do you think the testimonies/statements of these six officers regarding the discovery of the lunch remains was omitted?
--- End quote ---
In effectively demolishing everything you say, Charles has pointed out that they weren't omitted and that the WC attempted to resolve the conflict in the testimony. The chicken-bone issue simply didn't get the attention you think it deserved in the Warren Report, and I assume this is because the WC regarded the testimony as irreconcilable and the issue as trivial.
--- Quote ---The lunch remains were found on top of the SN. How did they get there?
--- End quote ---
It isn't 100% clear to me that this is what was being said. Even if it were, why would that inevitably be of great significance?
--- Quote ---Why weren't they considered evidence of an accomplice?
--- End quote ---
An assassination accomplice eating chicken? Pretty casual assassination, eh? WHY ON EARTH would this be considered evidence of an accomplice?
--- Quote ---What was Bonnie Ray doing having his lunch in the SN?
--- End quote ---
There is no reason to think he was. You are simply making every conceivable conspiracy insinuation and inference out of a piece of chicken of uncertain location and provenance. This is Conspiracy Thinking run amuck.
--- Quote ---Where was Oswald during this time?
--- End quote ---
During the relevant time period, I believe he was in the SN. Whether a piece of chicken was there as well, either before, after or during his occupancy, is not known and never will be.
--- Quote ---Nothing to see here folks ::)
--- End quote ---
No, not nothing. Just nothing particularly relevant or interesting.
P.S. -
You do realize that Williams originally said that he left the 6th floor, went down and got his lunch and then went up to the 5th floor (with his lunch) to watch the motorcade? Photographer Tom Alyea was ADAMANT that the lunch remains were found on the 5th floor, collected as evidence, and taken to the 6th floor. Williams thereafter changed his story to say he had eaten on the 6th floor. For all I know, he was simply confused. Anyway, I think you're trying to make way too much of an issue over something about which there is way too much uncertainty.
Here's Alyea:
Police officers who claim they were on the 6th floor when the assassin's window was found have reported that they saw chicken bones at or near the site. One officer reported that he saw chicken bones on the floor near the location. Another said he saw chicken bones on the barricade boxes, while another reported that he saw chicken bones on the box which was laying across the window sill. Some of these officers have given testimony as to the location of the shell casings. Their testimony differs and none of it is true. I have no idea why they are clinging to these statements. They must have a reason. Perhaps it is because they put it in a report and they must stick to it.
One officer stated that he found the assassin's location at the 6th floor window. He went on to say that as he and his fellow officers were leaving the building, he passed Captain Fritz coming in. He said he stopped briefly to tell Captain Fritz that he had found the assassin's lair at the 6th floor window. This seems highly unlikely because Captain Fritz joined us on the 5th floor and aided in the search. The chances are great that this, or these officers heard the report, that stemmed from WFAA-TV's incorrect announcement that the chicken bones were found on the 6th floor. This officer or officers perhaps used this information to formulate their presence at the scene. There were no chicken bones found on the 6th floor. We covered every inch of it and I filmed everything that could possibly be suspected as evidence. There definitely were no chicken bones on or near the barricade or boxes at the window. I shot close-up shots of the entire area.
Here's the Tom Alyea page at Bart Kamp's excellent site: http://www.prayer-man.com/camera/tom-alyea/
Jake Maxwell:
Bonnie Ray Williams was likely being set up to be the fall guy, if the Oswald scenario somehow fell through...
Dan O'meara:
“Though the fingerprints other than Oswald's on the boxes thus provide no indication of the presence of an accomplice at the window, two Depository employees are known to have been present briefly on the sixth floor during the period between 11:45 a.m., when the floor-laying crew stopped for lunch, and the moment of the assassination. One of these was Charles Givens, a member of the floor-laying crew, who went down on the elevator with the others and then, returned to the sixth floor to get his jacket and cigarettes. He saw Oswald walking away from the southeast corner, but saw no one else on the sixth floor at that time. He then took one of the elevators back to the first floor at approximately 11:55 a.m.”
[Warren Commission Report pg 249, 250]
The discovery of the lunch remains on the SN was simply ignored by the Warren Commission in it's report because it undermined the Oswald-Did-It [ODI] narrative they were trying to sell.
Ignoring evidence is one thing but fabricating evidence is another thing entirely. This is what happened with Charles Givens and his tale about returning to the 6th floor.
Charles Givens never returned to the 6th floor for his jacket and cigarettes. He wasn't even wearing a jacket that day:
Mr. BELIN.
Did you wear a jacket to work that day?
Mr. GIVENS.
I wore a raincoat, I believe. It was misting that morning.
Mr. BELIN.
Did you hang up your coat in that room [Domino Room], too?
Mr. GIVENS.
Yes, sir.
Givens never went back up to the 6th floor and he never saw Oswald “walking away from the southeast corner”. Givens had been questioned in detail many times before without mentioning anything about going back up to the 6th floor, let alone seeing Oswald walking away from the southeast corner. This brand new addition to his story should have come as an immense surprise to Warren Commission counsel David Belin, the lawyer interviewing Givens, instead it was treated as gospel and the fact that Givens had failed to mention it in many previous statements was simply overlooked.
This incredibly suspicious addition to Givens' story is dealt with in detail by Sylvia Meagher (“Accessories After the Fact” and “The Curious Testimony of Mr Givens”) and, in particular, by Pat Speer on his website (in the chapter entitled “Pinning The Tail On Oswald”). [https://www.patspeer.com/chapter4-pinning-the-tale-on-the-oswald]
“In February 2012, I stumbled across the FBI's first teletype regarding Givens. (This teletype can be found in FBI file 62-109060 sec 9 p54 on the Mary Ferrell Foundation website.) Here, only hours after he'd been interviewed, it was claimed "Charles Douglas Givens, Employee, TSBD, worked on sixth floor until about eleven thirty A.M. Left at this time going down on elevator. Saw Oswald on fifth floor as left going down. Oswald told him to close the gates when he got to first floor so Oswald could signal for elevator later. Givens stayed on first floor until twelve o'clock and then walked out of the building to watch the parade pass. Oswald was reading paper in the first floor domino room seven-fifty A.M. November twenty two last when Givens came to work."
Speer's in-depth analysis of this issue leaves no doubt that Givens lied about returning to the 6th floor and that Warren Commission counsel David Belin was instrumental in constructing this fabrication. The whole point of this was so that the Commission could conclude the following:
Additional testimony linking Oswald with the point from which the shots were fired was provided by the testimony of Charles Givens, who was the last known employee to see Oswald inside the building prior to the assassination.
The truth is that Givens was not the last employee to see Oswald inside the building. That was Eddie Piper:
Mr. BALL.
Did you leave the first floor from then on until lunch time, from 11:30 until 12?
Mr. PIPER.
No.
Mr. BALL.
What time was it that you spoke to Oswald and said you thought you would have your lunch?
Mr. PIPER.
Just about 12 o'clock.
Mr. BALL.
And do you remember exactly what he said?
Mr. PIPER.
No, sir; I don't remember exactly. All I remember him was muttering out something---I didn't know whether he said he was going up or going out.
This was a real problem for the WC's ODI narrative. They needed a window of opportunity for Oswald to assemble his rifle and prepare the SN. The only available window was in between the time the floor-laying crew broke for lunch and Bonnie Ray arriving back on the 6th floor. The very last thing they needed was for Oswald to go down to the first floor at lunch time but this is exactly what he did.
The collective testimonies and statements of the floor-laying crew reveal that around 11:45 am they broke for lunch. Everyday they had been having a race down to the first floor in the elevators. As they were passing the 5th floor Oswald called out to Givens to let him on the elevator but, presumably because he was involved in the race, Givens refused. Oswald called after them to close the gate on the elevator so he could call it back up.
Far from hiding in the shadows, biding his time, Oswald was looking to come down to the first floor.
Piper's testimony confirms he did that.
At around 12:00 pm Oswald was on the first floor and Bonnie Ray was on his way up to the 6th floor (presumably to have his lunch in the Sniper's Nest!)
This narrative had to be changed so in stepped Givens with his obvious fabrication and out went Piper's testimony. The pattern of 'ignored testimony' features heavily with the WC.
The WC could now claim that the last employee to see Oswald saw him on the 6th floor somewhere near the southeast corner. Oswald could now assemble his rifle, prepare the SN and silently hide for almost half an hour while Bonnie Ray had his lunch (sat right next to him?).
Anyone genuinely interested in this should check out the work of Meagher and Speer.
Dan O'meara:
--- Quote from: Lance Payette on March 26, 2025, 07:59:48 PM ---At the risk of my sanity, I have forced myself to read this entire thread.
In effectively demolishing everything you say, Charles has pointed out that they weren't omitted and that the WC attempted to resolve the conflict in the testimony. The chicken-bone issue simply didn't get the attention you think it deserved in the Warren Report, and I assume this is because the WC regarded the testimony as irreconcilable and the issue as trivial.
It isn't 100% clear to me that this is what was being said. Even if it were, why would that inevitably be of great significance?
An assassination accomplice eating chicken? Pretty casual assassination, eh? WHY ON EARTH would this be considered evidence of an accomplice?
There is no reason to think he was. You are simply making every conceivable conspiracy insinuation and inference out of a piece of chicken of uncertain location and provenance. This is Conspiracy Thinking run amuck.
During the relevant time period, I believe he was in the SN. Whether a piece of chicken was there as well, either before, after or during his occupancy, is not known and never will be.
No, not nothing. Just nothing particularly relevant or interesting.
P.S. -
You do realize that Williams originally said that he left the 6th floor, went down and got his lunch and then went up to the 5th floor (with his lunch) to watch the motorcade? Photographer Tom Alyea was ADAMANT that the lunch remains were found on the 5th floor, collected as evidence, and taken to the 6th floor. Williams thereafter changed his story to say he had eaten on the 6th floor. For all I know, he was simply confused. Anyway, I think you're trying to make way too much of an issue over something about which there is way too much uncertainty.
Here's Alyea:
Police officers who claim they were on the 6th floor when the assassin's window was found have reported that they saw chicken bones at or near the site. One officer reported that he saw chicken bones on the floor near the location. Another said he saw chicken bones on the barricade boxes, while another reported that he saw chicken bones on the box which was laying across the window sill. Some of these officers have given testimony as to the location of the shell casings. Their testimony differs and none of it is true. I have no idea why they are clinging to these statements. They must have a reason. Perhaps it is because they put it in a report and they must stick to it.
One officer stated that he found the assassin's location at the 6th floor window. He went on to say that as he and his fellow officers were leaving the building, he passed Captain Fritz coming in. He said he stopped briefly to tell Captain Fritz that he had found the assassin's lair at the 6th floor window. This seems highly unlikely because Captain Fritz joined us on the 5th floor and aided in the search. The chances are great that this, or these officers heard the report, that stemmed from WFAA-TV's incorrect announcement that the chicken bones were found on the 6th floor. This officer or officers perhaps used this information to formulate their presence at the scene. There were no chicken bones found on the 6th floor. We covered every inch of it and I filmed everything that could possibly be suspected as evidence. There definitely were no chicken bones on or near the barricade or boxes at the window. I shot close-up shots of the entire area.
Here's the Tom Alyea page at Bart Kamp's excellent site: http://www.prayer-man.com/camera/tom-alyea/
--- End quote ---
I think you're trying to make way too much of an issue over something about which there is way too much uncertainty.
There is no uncertainty.
All six officers specifically state that the lunch remains were discovered in the southeast corner.
At least three of them state that the remains were on top of the boxes that formed the SN.
There is zero uncertainty as to where the lunch remains were originally found.
I understand why you want the testimony of these officers to go away. It's the same reason the WC wanted it to go away.
Am I overstating the importance of discovering Bonnie Ray's lunch remains on the Sniper's Nest?
I don't think so.
But I understand why you do.
Lance Payette:
--- Quote from: Dan O'meara on March 26, 2025, 08:22:41 PM ---I think you're trying to make way too much of an issue over something about which there is way too much uncertainty.
There is no uncertainty.
All six officers specifically state that the lunch remains were discovered in the southeast corner.
At least three of them state that the remains were on top of the boxes that formed the SN.
There is zero uncertainty as to where the lunch remains were originally found.
I understand why you want the testimony of these officers to go away. It's the same reason the WC wanted it to go away.
Am I overstating the importance of discovering Bonnie Ray's lunch remains on the Sniper's Nest?
I don't think so.
But I understand why you do.
--- End quote ---
Good Lord, you are in the grip of 110-degree Conspiracy Fever. Did you even read Alyea's statement? He was one of the first people on the 6th floor and had absolutely no agenda. Consistent with BRW's first statement, Alyea places the chicken and bottle on the 5th floor. And you say there is ZERO UNCERTAINTY??? Let's increase the Conspiracy Fever to 115. Your six officers' statements aren't even consistent. Alyea's statement is entirely plausible. It's also entirely plausible that BRW, a minimum-wage Black guy and surely not the sharpest tool in the shed, might become confused or even intimidated into changing his story to fit the 6th floor narrative - but so what?
And now we have Jake suggesting BRW was the alternative patsy if "the Oswald scenario" fell through. What on earth would this even MEAN??? We will assign Jake a Conspiracy Fever of, oh, we'll say 142.9.
Are you folks serious? Are you so devoid of rationality (well, Conspiracy Fever does have that effect) that you really can't see that you're spouting nonsense of the first magnitude??? BTW, what happened to the "simple" LBJ-Byrd-Cason-Shelley conspiracy - lost interest in THAT pretty fast, eh? So now we're on to Chicken Bone Bonnie, International Man of Mystery and Assassination Accomplice. ::)
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