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Author Topic: Need Help Bulding a Physical Scale Model of Dealey Plaza  (Read 1552 times)

Offline Steve Barber

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Need Help Bulding a Physical Scale Model of Dealey Plaza
« on: April 20, 2024, 05:22:21 PM »
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  Hi All, 

  Does anyone here know of anyone who have taken meaurements of the dimensions of the concrete structures and so forth of Dealey plaza, e.g. pergola, retaining wall, triple underpass, pylons, peristyles, reflecting pool(s), knoll, infield grass, etc. ?  I'm in the making of an HO (1.87) scale replica of the plaza exactly as it was in 1963.  Thanks so much.   Steve

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Need Help Bulding a Physical Scale Model of Dealey Plaza
« on: April 20, 2024, 05:22:21 PM »


Online Robert Reeves

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Re: Need Help Bulding a Physical Scale Model of Dealey Plaza
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2024, 10:54:02 PM »
Robert Cutler's dealey plaza maps? I imagine there could be one he produced that provides detailed dimensions.

Online Royell Storing

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Re: Need Help Bulding a Physical Scale Model of Dealey Plaza
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2024, 11:10:27 PM »
    The section of Picket Fence that runs E-W/Parallel to Elm St is currently NOT in the same position it was on 11/22/63. Do you know how many feet (N) from its' current position the fence actually was on 11/22/63? The altered position of the picket fence resulted in confusing Gordon Arnold when he demonstrated his physical position inside Dealey Plaza during his "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" segment. Arnold filmed this segment 25 yrs after the assassination of JFK. The moving of that picket fence also screws up any/every investigation of possible shooter(s) positioned behind the picket fence. This includes investigating "The Badge Man". Bear in mind that if you Alter the position of the E-W section of the picket fence, then the N-S section of fencing also has to be Altered in order for these 2 sections of fencing to meet and form a corner. The moving of the picket fence along with the other many Physical Alterations of Dealey Plaza also impacts acoustic testing.     
« Last Edit: April 21, 2024, 01:10:48 AM by Royell Storing »

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Re: Need Help Bulding a Physical Scale Model of Dealey Plaza
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2024, 11:10:27 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Need Help Bulding a Physical Scale Model of Dealey Plaza
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2024, 12:41:33 PM »
  Hi All, 

  Does anyone here know of anyone who have taken meaurements of the dimensions of the concrete structures and so forth of Dealey plaza, e.g. pergola, retaining wall, triple underpass, pylons, peristyles, reflecting pool(s), knoll, infield grass, etc. ?  I'm in the making of an HO (1.87) scale replica of the plaza exactly as it was in 1963.  Thanks so much.   Steve


Sounds like an interesting project. There are people here who have taken some measurements, etc. Hopefully they will be in contact with you. I think that PM might be the best method. Good luck with this and please let us see some progress and finished project photos!

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Need Help Bulding a Physical Scale Model of Dealey Plaza
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2024, 04:21:08 PM »
Take one of the Topo Maps here: Link The tilt correction (which I did to the Cropped Version) might be one-percent, if I recall correctly. ( I used 0.1% tilt correction)

Then find the best-resolution satellite photo you can find (all I've seen are poor resolution) and superimpose it as a transparency onto the Topo Map. The Topo Map was created by hand using French Curves, so the street curves and corners (pergola, pool, etc.) are stylized generic, not literal. That's the reason for the satellite photo; the problem is how do you know if the photo and map are the same scale. That's an individual decision.

The Cutler Plat map was based on the map made for the WC. It also has those hand-drawn curves that are a bit off from the satellite photo. If you could access the Knott Lab 3D scan of DP and had a $4000. high-end computer, you would have it made.

You can get point-to-point measurements on objects in DP that are on the same plane using Google Maps. These are rounded figures but give a rough idea. I have a thread called "3D Modeling" with important on-site measurements by James Hackerott.

If I were you, though, I would first work on the Topo Map/satellite overlay and post it here for comments, or PM Charles or me. That is the base of the whole model and you have to perfect it as much as possible.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2024, 03:47:30 AM by Jerry Organ »

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Re: Need Help Bulding a Physical Scale Model of Dealey Plaza
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2024, 04:21:08 PM »


Online Royell Storing

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Re: Need Help Bulding a Physical Scale Model of Dealey Plaza
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2024, 06:20:28 PM »

    Going down to Dealey Plaza today and critically examining the murder scene is almost a complete waste of time. They've even altered the Landing directly in front of the TSBD front door. (Prayer Man). And then there's the moving of the Picket Fence. A very critical piece of evidence.

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Need Help Bulding a Physical Scale Model of Dealey Plaza
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2024, 05:02:10 AM »
(Full-size of download: 4400x3200 pixels)
Here's the Topo Map with the 0.1% tilt correction. It's possible the aspect ratio was unintentionally altered during scanning; many scanners then had mechanical parts that wore or grew sluggish.

(Full-size of download: 4600x4000 pixels)
Now here's a good-resolution aerial or satellite photo (I had to stitch a few images together). I figured you wanted the North Yard and North Tower.

(Full-size of download: 7300x6000 pixels)
Finally here's my transparent overlay of the satellite photo onto the Topo Map. You can try your own figures. Here's mine. I tilted the aerial composite 14.4% and enlarged it 187.5%. It's all subjective, unfortunately. This particular overlay matches some of the building street-level bases and is close to the curvature of Elm Street.

My overlay method has the aerial short of the north curb on Main and it means the Topo Map got wrong the location of the pergola and the masonry structures by the pool. I wonder if those structures were surveyed on a different day, or rendered from an aerial, and added in later, inadvertently getting it wrong. If my placement of the aerial photo on the Topo Map is correct, then I would go with where the aerial shows the pergola, bridge and North Tower.

There's a trade off that's appropriate for you working with your own set of figures. It would be nice to get the Topo Map to work but you have to be aware of where it's wrong.

Now if you only wanted a generalized map, then the Cutler Plat would do. In my 3D model, I found that sloping Main (beginning at the west edge of Houston and ending just before the bridge entrance) 3.2° worked. The usual slope is said to be 3°, probably rounded.

The Knott Lab 3D scan of the physical Plaza is the modern way to extract figures and angles. You would need a very robust computer just to open that model. It would take years to clean up the extraneous noise in the scan and reduce the file size for home use. So we're left with the 2D approach.

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Re: Need Help Bulding a Physical Scale Model of Dealey Plaza
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2024, 05:02:10 AM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Need Help Bulding a Physical Scale Model of Dealey Plaza
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2024, 03:53:47 PM »
I noticed the uneven shadow on the Depository and Dal-Tex roofs as shown on the aerial photo. The roofs slope east-to-west.



You can see the drain pipes from the roof on the west-side facades of both buildings.