T.F. Bowley, A Wind-Up Wristwatch & 1:17

[Bill Brown]

Unless you're going to argue that the Hertz clock was off by as much as six minutes, what's your point?

Isn't it your implicit point that the Hertz clock was absolutely correct? If not, what's the point you're trying to make?


Bowles does indeed explain and nowhere in his explanation does he hint that the clock(s) could be off by as much as six minutes.  That would be nonsense.

In fact, here is what Bowles had to say:

"Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock. Accordingly, at "exactly" 10:10, various clocks could be stamping from 10:08 to 10:12, for example. When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done."

Bowles had a lot more to say than that. This only concerns the time stamps called out by the operator. Clocks used by the operators could differ from eachother and time stamps being called could be out of synch during heavy radio traffic. So, this alone allows for a difference in time between "real" time and the time stamps. But that's not all Bowles said. I have to paraphrase, but IIRC he also said that the clocks used by the operators were not in synch with the master clock used at the police station, which in turn was not in synch with the main clock used for determining "real time", located elsewhere (can't remember where exactly). There are so many variable elements that it would be nonsense to claim that the clocks used by the operators and/or the time stamps on the recordings can be relied upon. I would have to dig up my research on that subject, to be precise, but I do recall off hand that at a particular moment only 49 seconds elapsed between two time stamp calls by the operators, which off course is utterly impossible if the entire timing system was precise.

Markham told Ball that she "got her bus" at 1:15.  Since there was no 1:15 bus, It's my opinion that she gets to the bus stop around 1:15 in order to catch the 1:22 bus.  If that is true, then it's perfectly reasonable that she's standing on the corner of Tenth and Patton (one block from her bus stop) at 1:14.

It doesn't matter that there was no bus scheduled at exactly 1:15. The schedule showed a bus at 1:12 and one at 1:22. Markham could have taken either a delayed 1:12 bus or the next one at 1:22. The main point is that either way, she said she got her bus at 1:15, which means she would have had to have been at the bus stop on Jefferson at that time. As she would have needed to walk one more block from 10th street to Jefferson to get there by 1:15, there is no reasonable way that she would still have been at 10th/Patton at 1:14. Even less so, as she said she left home at 1 to make a phone call and then started walking down Patton at around 1:06 or 1:07.... A three minute walk would have gotten here to the corner of 10th and Patton by 1:09 or 1:10 at the latest. It just doesn't add up.

And the same goes for Bowley's trip from the school where he picked up his daughter to 10th street where he arrived just after the shooting. I have driven the route he took myself several times and it never took longer than 13 minutes, yet you seem to believe it must have taken him 17 minutes..... now, that's nonsense

Isn't it your implicit point that the Hertz clock was absolutely correct? If not, what's the point you're trying to make?

My point should be obvious.  The Hertz clock needs to be off by six or seven minutes in order for the Tippit shooting to have taken place before 1:10.

Bowles had a lot more to say than that. This only concerns the time stamps called out by the operator. Clocks used by the operators could differ from eachother and time stamps being called could be out of synch during heavy radio traffic. So, this alone allows for a difference in time between "real" time and the time stamps. But that's not all Bowles said. I have to paraphrase, but IIRC he also said that the clocks used by the operators were not in synch with the master clock used at the police station, which in turn was not in synch with the main clock used for determining "real time", located elsewhere (can't remember where exactly). There are so many variable elements that it would be nonsense to claim that the clocks used by the operators and/or the time stamps on the recordings can be relied upon. I would have to dig up my research on that subject, to be precise, but I do recall off hand that at a particular moment only 49 seconds elapsed between two time stamp calls by the operators, which off course is utterly impossible if the entire timing system was precise.

But... and this is the important part... Bowles never says anything even remotely close to the idea that the clocks could be six or seven minutes apart/off, which is what is required for the Tippit shooting to have taken place before 1:10.

It doesn't matter that there was no bus scheduled at exactly 1:15. The schedule showed a bus at 1:12 and one at 1:22. Markham could have taken either a delayed 1:12 bus or the next one at 1:22. The main point is that either way, she said she got her bus at 1:15, which means she would have had to have been at the bus stop on Jefferson at that time. As she would have needed to walk one more block from 10th street to Jefferson to get there by 1:15, there is no reasonable way that she would still have been at 10th/Patton at 1:14. Even less so, as she said she left home at 1 to make a phone call and then started walking down Patton at around 1:06 or 1:07.... A three minute walk would have gotten here to the corner of 10th and Patton by 1:09 or 1:10 at the latest. It just doesn't add up.

No matter how you spin it, it is perfectly reasonable for one to be a block from the bus stop (on their way to that stop) eight minutes (1:14) before the bus is to arrive (1:22).

[Bill Brown]

Stop trying to rewrite history. I already know that you will never admit to being wrong about anything, even though you keep claiming falsely that you would admit being wrong if proven so.

And no appeal to "authority" will help you either. That - as you claim - Bugliosi and Meyers agree with you, does not mean you were right. It only means they - like you - have an agenda and were wrong also as the facts are obvious and against you.

No Sir.  The audio of the actual police tapes tells you that I was right, re: Callaway's call and how it relates to the ambulance pulling away, etc...
Prove me wrong and I will easily admit it.  I have before.  Your issue is that you haven't shown where I was wrong about anything.

[Martin Weidmann]

No Sir.  The audio of the actual police tapes tells you that I was right, re: Callaway's call and how it relates to the ambulance pulling away, etc...
Prove me wrong and I will easily admit it.  I have before.  Your issue is that you haven't shown where I was wrong about anything.

Your issue is that you haven't shown where I was wrong about anything.

You have been proven wrong and now you have proven that my statement about you never admitting being wrong is correct 

Btw, you have never ever proven the claim you made about Callaway. All you have done is claim you are right and ask to be proven wrong. "

It's the typical LN mantra "I am right unless you prove me wrong, but you can't prove me wrong because I am right. So sad!

[Bill Brown]

Your issue is that you haven't shown where I was wrong about anything.

You have been proven wrong and now you have proven that my statement about you never admitting being wrong is correct 

Btw, you have never ever proven the claim you made about Callaway. All you have done is claim you are right and ask to be proven wrong. "

It's the typical LN mantra "I am right unless you prove me wrong, but you can't prove me wrong because I am right. So sad!

Again, the audio of the actual police tapes tells you that I was right, re: Callaway's call and how it relates to the ambulance pulling away, etc...

[Martin Weidmann]

My point should be obvious.  The Hertz clock needs to be off by six or seven minutes in order for the Tippit shooting to have taken place before 1:10.


But... and this is the important part... Bowles never says anything even remotely close to the idea that the clocks could be six or seven minutes apart/off, which is what is required for the Tippit shooting to have taken place before 1:10.


No matter how you spin it, it is perfectly reasonable for one to be a block from the bus stop (on their way to that stop) eight minutes (1:14) before the bus is to arrive (1:22).

My point should be obvious.  The Hertz clock needs to be off by six or seven minutes in order for the Tippit shooting to have taken place before 1:10.

No. It could be the Hertz clock by itself was (for example) two minutes off, already making the DPD time stamps two minutes wrong at the time of the Kennedy shooting.
Add the comments by Bowles about no adjustments being made at busy time makes it realistically possible that the time discrepancy grew bigger during the hour after Kennedy being shot.

But... and this is the important part... Bowles never says anything even remotely close to the idea that the clocks could be six or seven minutes apart/off, which is what is required for the Tippit shooting to have taken place before 1:10.

Again, what clocks are you talking about? It is true that Bowles never said that any one particular clock could be six or seven minutes off, but he did point out that individual clocks had margins of error which of course could end up to a 6 or 7 minute difference in total. Why are you cherry picking the evidence?

No matter how you spin it, it is perfectly reasonable for one to be a block from the bus stop (on their way to that stop) eight minutes (1:14) before the bus is to arrive (1:22).

Yes, that's perfectly reasonable when you believe you get on the bus at 1:22.

But that's not what Markham believed. She said she got her bus (either a delayed 1:12 or 1:22) at 1:15, which means that in her mind she needed to be at the bus stop on Jefferson at 1:15, making it utterly unreasonable to believe she would still be one block away from the bus stop at 1:14. Even less so, as she claimed she started walking to the bus stop at 1:06 or 1:07. A three minute walk (which means walking really slow) would have gotten her to 10th and Patton at 1:10 at the latest. So why would she still be there at 1:14? Can you explain that?

[Martin Weidmann]

Again, the audio of the actual police tapes tells you that I was right, re: Callaway's call and how it relates to the ambulance pulling away, etc...

You can make the same claim a 1000 times more and still you will not be correct. What you believe is not evidence!

As I proved conclusively in our mini-debate is that the ambulance driver tried to make two calls to the dispatcher to tell him the victim was a police officer.
This happened before Tippit was lifted into the ambulance.

You mistakenly claimed that one of those two calls was made to inform the dispatcher that the ambulance was leaving.
The ambulance driver, Butler, confirmed that you were wrong in the Nash interview.

[Bill Brown]

My point should be obvious.  The Hertz clock needs to be off by six or seven minutes in order for the Tippit shooting to have taken place before 1:10.

No. It could be the Hertz clock by itself was (for example) two minutes off, already making the DPD time stamps two minutes wrong at the time of the Kennedy shooting.
Add the comments by Bowles about no adjustments being made at busy time makes it realistically possible that the time discrepancy grew bigger during the hour after Kennedy being shot.

But... and this is the important part... Bowles never says anything even remotely close to the idea that the clocks could be six or seven minutes apart/off, which is what is required for the Tippit shooting to have taken place before 1:10.

Again, what clocks are you talking about? It is true that Bowles never said that any one particular clock could be six or seven minutes off, but he did point out that individual clocks had margins of error which of course could end up to a 6 or 7 minute difference in total. Why are you cherry picking the evidence?

No matter how you spin it, it is perfectly reasonable for one to be a block from the bus stop (on their way to that stop) eight minutes (1:14) before the bus is to arrive (1:22).

Yes, that's perfectly reasonable when you believe you get on the bus at 1:22.

But that's not what Markham believed. She said she got her bus (either a delayed 1:12 or 1:22) at 1:15, which means that in her mind she needed to be at the bus stop on Jefferson at 1:15, making it utterly unreasonable to believe she would still be one block away from the bus stop at 1:14. Even less so, as she claimed she started walking to the bus stop at 1:06 or 1:07. A three minute walk (which means walking really slow) would have gotten her to 10th and Patton at 1:10 at the latest. So why would she still be there at 1:14? Can you explain that?

My point should be obvious.  The Hertz clock needs to be off by six or seven minutes in order for the Tippit shooting to have taken place before 1:10.

No. It could be the Hertz clock by itself was (for example) two minutes off, already making the DPD time stamps two minutes wrong at the time of the Kennedy shooting.

"Could be"  LOL

But... and this is the important part... Bowles never says anything even remotely close to the idea that the clocks could be six or seven minutes apart/off, which is what is required for the Tippit shooting to have taken place before 1:10.

Again, what clocks are you talking about? It is true that Bowles never said that any one particular clock could be six or seven minutes off, but he did point out that individual clocks had margins of error which of course could end up to a 6 or 7 minute difference in total.

Six or seven minutes difference in total?  No.  Bowles pointed out no such "margins of error".  You're just making stuff up or you've completely forgotten just what it was that Bowles said.  Yes, perhaps you need to go "dig it up" and read it again.

No matter how you spin it, it is perfectly reasonable for one to be a block from the bus stop (on their way to that stop) eight minutes (1:14) before the bus is to arrive (1:22).

Yes, that's perfectly reasonable when you believe you get on the bus at 1:22.

But that's not what Markham believed. She said she got her bus (either a delayed 1:12 or 1:22) at 1:15, which means that in her mind she needed to be at the bus stop on Jefferson at 1:15, making it utterly unreasonable to believe she would still be one block away from the bus stop at 1:14. Even less so, as she claimed she started walking to the bus stop at 1:06 or 1:07. A three minute walk (which means walking really slow) would have gotten her to 10th and Patton at 1:10 at the latest. So why would she still be there at 1:14? Can you explain that?

Ball basically asked Markham what time do you "get your bus".  A strange way to ask a question.  We can't know how Markham perceived that non-descript question and therefore we cannot know what she meant by her answer.  She replied "1:15".  Since there was no 1:15 bus and she would regularly miss her bus if she gets to the bus stop at 1:15 to catch the 1:12 bus, I am left to conclude that she regularly caught the 1:22 bus, getting there around 1:15.  If my conclusion is correct, then it's reasonable that she's still one block away (at Tenth and Patton) at 1:14.

As for her estimate that she left her apartment at 1:07ish, the police tapes, combined with the descriptions and actions of MANY other witnesses, tell me that she left her apartment later than that.

You see, I'll take hard physical evidence (the police tapes) over a lady's estimate of when it was that she left her apartment.
You have no proof that Markham left her apartment around 1:07, only her claim.  On the other hand, the police tapes, combined with the actions of other witnesses, suggest that she left her apartment 5 minutes later.