The 3 Minute Lie

[Dan O'meara]

You seem to be forgetting that Lovelady was telling the exact same lie as Shelley.
You seem to forget that the Darnell footage proves they were lying.
You seem to forget that the Baker/Truly time trials prove they were lying.
You seem to forget that Shelley repeated this lie to George and Patricia Nash
You seem to forget that, in his affidavit, Shelley stated he met Gloria at "that little, old island" and not at the steps.
You really are very forgetful, aren't you.

Shelley and Lovelady lied when they said in their WC testimony that after three minutes Gloria came running up, that they moved across to "that little, old island" and it was then they turned around and saw Baker and Truly at the bottom of the steps about to enter the building.

Obviously, it has been determined Shelley and Lovelady did not lie to anyone.

Shelley estimated three to four minutes based on the actions of Gloria Calvery. There had to be a little time span for Shelley to even estimate three minutes. Truly thinks the time trials were a minimum not a maximum. You are doing enough speculating and guessing for everyone. 16 seconds as an estimate as to how quick Calvery returned to the front of the building has no basis in reality.  The time trials can be best summarized by Truly's take on them.

Mr. BELIN. Would you say that the reconstruction that we did on March 20th was a minimum or a maximum time?
Mr. TRULY. Oh, I would say that would be the minimum time.

Truly thought that 90 seconds was to short of a time span. Was he lying too? Everyone was lying. Everyone but Oswald.

It is safe to say that the idea that Shelley and Lovelady lied can be put to rest. Once again you have a picture that is a snapshot in time and tells nothing about the movement of the people or the time involved but look at the story you have created around the one picture. Shelley easily could have walked over to the island and returned with Calvery. Shelley during the parade was on the steps above Lovelady not standing at the bottom of the steps starring into space.

Why won't you answer the question Jack?
What's wrong with you?

For the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps of the TSBD building after the shots?
Everyone can see you're avoiding this incredibly simple question.
Just answer it 

[Jack Nessan]

Why won't you answer the question Jack?
What's wrong with you?

For the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps of the TSBD building after the shots?
Everyone can see you're avoiding this incredibly simple question.
Just answer it 

It is obvious you have no idea as to how long it took her and I could care less. It is not as easy as how far and how fast did she run. You are trying to prove something here why not just get on with it.

The one thing you have not proven is did Shelley and Lovelady lie to discredit Adams and Styles. You just never really read their statements and realized Shelley’s statement hinged on the arrival of Calvery and how long that it took her to go that far. There is no missing three minutes in their statements. That is the real point, and which is the basis for this whole exercise. Here is the bottom line, Adams and Styles did not leave as early as they thought.

[Dan O'meara]

It is obvious you have no idea as to how long it took her and I could care less. It is not as easy as how far and how fast did she run. You are trying to prove something here why not just get on with it.

The one thing you have not proven is did Shelley and Lovelady lie to discredit Adams and Styles. You just never really read their statements and realized Shelley’s statement hinged on the arrival of Calvery and how long that it took her to go that far. There is no missing three minutes in their statements. That is the real point, and which is the basis for this whole exercise. Here is the bottom line, Adams and Styles did not leave as early as they thought.

 
For the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps?
Don't be so cowardly and just answer the question.
There's an obvious reason why you won't answer it - you're going to make a massive fool of yourself. Again.
It's such a simple question Jack.

It has been proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Shelley and Lovelady lied to the Commission about their movements after the assassination.
The 3 Minute Lie is proven to be a lie by the Darnell footage.
It's proven to be a lie by the Truly/Baker time trials.
It's proven to be a lie by their same-day affidavits.
Shelley - after the shots, he ran across the street to the "corner of the park", he ran into Gloria across the street, returned to the steps and went back inside the building.
Lovelady - stayed on the front steps then went back in the building with Shelley.
In their WC statements Gloria runs up to them while they are still at the steps - contradicting Shelley's affidavit.
Then both men run across the street to "that little, old island" - contradicting Lovelady's affidavit.
In their affidavits there is no mention of making their way down the Elm Street extension, hanging round the railroad yard then re-entering the building through the west door because none of that happened. Both men were back inside the front of the building within seconds of the shooting.
In further statements, as their lie evolves, Lovelady has them running down to where the limo slowed down and not the railroad yard. Shelley has them accompanying police officers down to the railroad yard where they stay for ten minutes!

The Darnell footage shows Baker reaching the foot of the TSBD steps seconds after the shooting.
According to their WC statements Shelley and Lovelady have already spoken with Gloria and made their way across the Elm Street extension.
How do YOU explain this discrepancy? [Don't bother ducking this question]



Poor old Jack.

[Richard Smith]

Why would Shelley and Lovelady "intentionally lie" about their movements? 

[Andrew Mason]

Hi Andrew, you don't seem to be grasping what this thread is about.
Do you agree that, during the WC hearings, both men testify that after at least three minutes, Gloria Calvery approaches them at the steps, tells them about the shooting after which they both make their way out to the concrete spur across the Elm Street extension. At some point after they have left the steps they turn around to see Baker and Truly still outside the TSBD building?

Do you agree with that assessment?

They did not volunteer that. They simply go along with what Ball suggests.  My point is that you cannot give any weight to that suggestion. Ball was confused into thinking that they met Gloria Calvery on the steps. They simply did not challenge Ball's suggestion.  They said from the beginning that they met her after they crossed Elm St. as she was coming toward them from farther down Elm.

Do you agree that the Darnell footage proves this is an incorrect account of events?
Do you agree that the Baker/Truly time trials prove this is an incorrect account of events?
Once I feel you have a basic understanding of what the thread is about we can move forward with some kind of discussion but, with respect to the two replies you've posted on this thread, I don't feel you really understand what's being said.

You seem to be suggesting that Shelley and Lovelady were conspiring together to lie about how long it took for Baker and Truly to enter the TSBD. But they never said that they entered three minutes after the shots. They said they met Gloria Calvery 3 minutes after the shots.  They never said that they met Gloria Calvery before they crossed Elm St. That was Ball's take.

But all of this does not matter if all we are trying to do is determine when Victoria Adams came down the stairs to the first floor and saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor.

I feel this statement clearly demonstrates that you don't really know what this thread is about.
It's not about Vicki Adams.
It's about Shelley and Lovelady lying in their WC testimonies.

That was several minutes after the shots, probably more than 5 minutes.

What are you basing this timing on?
Please don't say the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady.

No. it is based on the fact that Adams said that when she came down the stairs to the first floor she saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor.  The time is based on Shelley and Lovelady's earlier statements from 22Nov63, not their much later and somewhat confused WC testimony.

If so, I urge you to read what's been posted so far in this thread.

Truly and Baker were up past the fourth floor before Adams started down the stairs.

Familiarise yourself with the Stroud document.
Adams and Styles were down the stairs before Truly and Baker came up the same stairs.
You should really know something this basic.

It may be basic to you but you are not taking into account all the evidence.  If she came down before Truly and Baker went to the second floor lunchroom, she could not have seen Shelley and Lovelady walking across the first floor.  They could not have met Gloria Calvery before going around to the first floor entrance (not sure how they could have entered on the west side - must have been the door by the back loading dock) in before Truly and Baker went up the stairs.

[Dan O'meara]

Why would Shelley and Lovelady "intentionally lie" about their movements?

Why, indeed.

[Richard Smith]

Why, indeed.

How about trying to answer with the understanding that would entail some speculation since you have gone on and on about this accusing them of "intentional" lies?  Why would someone in their position intentionally lie about their movements under oath?  Are you suggesting they were involved in the conspiracy to kill the president and frame Oswald and their role in this plot was to lie about their movements?  If so, that is very silly.  If not, it is difficult to understand why you think they would intentionally lie.