JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
JFK's Dramatic Z226-232 Reaction: More Proof that the SBT Is a Silly Myth
David Von Pein:
--- Quote from: Martin Weidmann on January 26, 2024, 06:51:16 PM ---Almost certainly? Really?
When you are not even sure enough to leave "almost" out and the matter is still open to discussion and interpretation of a few video images, you can not call it "a rock-solid FACT"
--- End quote ---
Don't I get even as much as half of a bonus point for my use of the word "almost"?
Martin Weidmann:
--- Quote from: David Von Pein on January 26, 2024, 07:05:14 PM ---Don't I get even as much as half of a bonus point for my use of the word "almost"?
--- End quote ---
You would have gotten a whole bonus point by not calling something "a rock-solid FACT" when it clearly isn't one. Thumb1:
Martin Weidmann:
--- Quote from: Jerry Organ on January 26, 2024, 07:21:53 PM ---At least you spared Martin a physical reaction.
--- End quote ---
I am sure you can somehow make sense of what you have written but I can't translate it into something coherent.
Michael T. Griffith:
--- Quote from: David Von Pein on January 26, 2024, 06:44:40 PM ---JFK isn't "reacting" at all prior to Z226.
--- End quote ---
This is silly denial of the obvious. I notice you ignored the point that we have known for years that even the WC's experts recognized that there is "some jerkiness" in JFK's movements in Z199-205, and that his right elbow "appears to be raised to an artificially high position" in Z204-205 ("Memorandum for the Record: Conference of April 14, 1964, to Determine Which Frames in the Zapruder Movies Show the Impact of the First and Second Bullets," written by WC attorney Melvin Eisenberg, 4/22/64, p. 1).
--- Quote from: David Von Pein on January 26, 2024, 06:44:40 PM ---The HSCA's "Z190" SBT timeline is total nonsense and totally wrong.
--- End quote ---
Your comment is what is total nonsense and totally wrong. It is beyond me how you can say this stuff on a public board and still pretend to be any kind of serious researcher of the JFK case. You simply ignored the HSCA PEP's point that Willis slide 5 was snapped at Z202 in response to hearing a gunshot that hit Kennedy, which would put the shot at around Z184-190.
You also ignored the fact that Olson and Turner noted the same reactive motions before Z207 that the HSCA PEP noted, and that even the WC's experts recognized JFK's pre-207 reaction.
--- Quote from: David Von Pein on January 26, 2024, 06:44:40 PM ---President Kennedy's right hand is still being LOWERED between Z224 and 225:
--- End quote ---
Uh, yeah, that's because his forearm motion is jerky as he is trying to bring his hands up to his throat. It is not one smooth upward motion--it is a halting, jerky motion because he's been injured and is feeling considerable pain.
And in Z224, his left arm, which had been lying comfortably at his side, is now elevated, is bent inward, and is nearly up to his throat. This fact alone destroys your silly Z224 SBT. There is no way this reaction could be in response to a Z224 hit. Humans can't react that quickly to a gunshot wound.
And in Z222, Jackie is staring intently at JFK. She begins to turn her head rapidly toward JFK at Z202, and she is still looking at him in Z222. Why? Obviously, because she has realized that something is wrong with her husband, and she clearly realizes this long before Z224.
Only people who are willing to deny reality and delude themselves will deny that these reactions self-evidently, undoubtedly, indisputably show that JFK was hit many frames before Z224.
--- Quote from: David Von Pein on January 26, 2024, 06:44:40 PM ---Connally's and Kennedy's right arms are then simultaneously moving upward between 225 and 226. And Connally was struck in his RIGHT wrist during the shooting. Just a coincidence? If so, what's causing this rapid up-then-down movement of the exact same arm/wrist that was wounded by a bullet?
--- End quote ---
Yes, again, it is entirely a coincidence because JFK plainly and clearly begins to bring both of his hands up to his throat long before Z224. I know you can see these things, but you won't acknowledge them. And, once again, you simply ignored all the evidence I cited and merely repeated your claim.
I notice you seem to have a habit of repeating your arguments after you dismiss or ignore facts that refute them.
--- Quote from: David Von Pein on January 26, 2024, 06:44:40 PM ---CTers have come up with all kinds of lame-ass excuses to explain away all of the many things we see going on with Governor Connally in Zapruder frames 224 to 230 [GO HERE to see about a dozen such excuses], but sensible people can easily see through the B.S. and constant denial being exhibited by the conspiracy theorists.
--- End quote ---
Well, 2/3 to 3/4 of the Western world rejects your view of the assassination, so you might want to exercise just a tiny bit of caution and decorum in your verbiage instead of this overheated polemic.
Actually, CTers have offered a very sensible, plausible explanation for Connally's head turn and reaction in Z224-230, starting with the fact that Connally himself--you know, the guy who actually experienced the wounding--adamantly insisted that he was not hit before Z228, and that he chose Z234 as the frame of impact.
Connally himself also explained why he turns his head from right to left in Z224-230: because he has just finished trying to look at JFK in response to hearing a gunshot! This explains why he looks tense and stiff. He knew he had just heard a gunshot, so of course he became tense and stiff and had got a concerned look on his face.
But, according to you guys, by Z230 it has been six frames since Connally has had a bullet tear through his chest, shatter his right wrist, and penetrate into his thigh!
Incidentally, I notice that you again said nothing about JFK's dramatic Z226-232 forward-jolt reaction, which happens to be the subject of this thread. I notice you keep ignoring it. How do you explain Connally's lack of dramatic pre-Z238 reaction to Kennedy's being jolted sharply forward in Z226 twelve frames earlier?
--- Quote from: David Von Pein on January 26, 2024, 06:44:40 PM ---Re: the HSCA's absurd "11-degree upward angle" of the bullet path through JFK's upper back and neck....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/jfk-back-wound-location.html
--- End quote ---
Nothing in your blog article--not one word--addresses the evidence cited by the HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel (FPP) and years earlier by Dr. Werner Spitz that the bullet entered at an upward angle and traveled upward inside the body. Allow me to again quote Dr. Spitz's 1975 finding when he served as a member of the Rockefeller Commission’s medical panel:
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There is no doubt that the bullet which struck the President’s back penetrated the skin in a sharply upward direction, as is evident from the width of the abrasion at the lower half of the bullet wound of entrance. The term "sharply upward direction" is used because it is evident from this injury that the missile traveled upwards within the body. (Report of Werner Spitz, 4/24/75, p. 1, Rockefeller Commission papers, see https://websites.umich.edu/~ahaq/correspondence.pdf)
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Can you cite a single medical expert who has disputed the HSCA FPP's evidence that the back-wound bullet penetrated at an upward angle and traveled upward within the body? A number of other medical experts have concurred with the FPP's finding, such as Dr. Mantik and Dr. Aguilar.
David Von Pein:
The VERY LOW position of both of JFK's hands at Z225 provides the
virtual proof that Kennedy was not hit nearly as early as Z190:
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