When Was JBC Hit?

[Jack Nessan]

But it doesn’t matter how hard the impact to determine the transfer of momentum. The only thing that matters is the bullet momentum before and the bullet momentum after. Since that loss of momentum is imparted to the body and to whatever it is connected to, the maximum momentum the body can gain is the amount lost by the bullet.

It is obvious, you are all about Physics. You have thought of everything and accounted for it in your reasoning.

Please don’t stop, you are on a real roll. It would be foolish to ever question your intelligence.

[Andrew Mason]

I'm modelling Mason's Theory (he's too cheap to pay to see it done) with his requirements for a Z200s First Shot stated earlier in this thread (Z193, being the clearest in that area, is the frame modeled). This is a draft.

Thanks Jerry. Nicely done. I wasn’t aware of any service available to get this kind of thing done, unless you are offering. 

[Andrew Mason]

Ok , sorry about the misunderstanding on my part about Andrews Z195-200 shot missing.

So it’s about Z200 is the 1st shot that hits only JFK in his back and then exits his throat?
Then about 70 frames (3.5 seconds ) later , a 2nd shot approx at Z270 ish which hits only JC.

Then there’s the 3rd shot Z313 which is 43 frames (about 2.5 secs) after Z270.

JFK was visible from the SN while he passed under the oak tree branches and he was completely clear when he was opposite the lamppost before the Thornton freeway sign. He was opposite the lamppost at z190 and opposite Thornton at z200. I can see signs of the reaction to the first shot by Ready by z199. So I suggest the first shot is closer to z190 than to z200 so I would use z193.

 I also identify the second shot from several indicators at z271-272.

 The final shot was between z312 and z313. 

That makes the spacing 78:41 or 4.26 seconds to 2.24 seconds.  But one must also take into account the difference between sound of the shot hitting an observer’s ear and the shot striking.. The sound of the shot arrives after the shot by a frame or two depending on the length of the path of the bullet and the length of the sound path to the observer.

That’s a rather amazing shot at Z313 at a round 8” diameter target , moving away slightly laterally at about 8mph , at a range of about 90 yards  in just 2.5 secs after the  2nd shot and accomplished using only the iron sights of the bolt action MC rifle which were fixed zero at 200 meters.

Too bad no one has ever replicated this proposed sequence and timing of shots and scored the head shot .

The evidence is that shots were fired from the SN that quickly and the damage occurred.

We also know that between z271 and z312 the path to JFK did not change much as the car was moving almost directly away. JFK moved a bit to the right between those frames.  Oswald has a strap and boxes to prevent motion of the rifle while reloading.

[Jerry Organ]

Thanks Jerry. Nicely done. I wasn’t aware of any service available to get this kind of thing done, unless you are offering.

Try your trusted Knotts Lab. Law firms outside Dogpatch Toontown often use 3D.

Are there any moles or freckles you want me to add to the Connally figure? Now's the time.

[Zeon Mason]

Does that model  of JC , that Jerry just posted here, represent fairly accurately the position of JC at Z270 as proposed by Andrew?

If so , a bullet hitting  JCs right hand/wrist and exiting the palm of the hand, would  have had to go thru the hat if the bullet entered JCs left inner thigh.

The motions of JCs right shoulder suddenly rotating beginning at Z225 and the right hand clutching hat suddenly upward, beginning approx Z230 seem to me more likely due to involuntary reaction of JC to being hit by a bullet, as opposed to JC just merely trying to turn around after hearing  a rifle shot fired.

If Jerry’s model which has both JCs legs parallel with the longitudinal axis of the limo is the actual orientation ,  then theoretically JC should have been able to twist his upper body around equally right or left.

However, imo, JC did  NOT twist around to his left as much as he did to his right during those movements from Z225-z270.

This suggests that perhaps JC had both his legs rotated towards the right side door when he was in the Z224 position, and that this  precluded him from twisting around to look over his left shoulder enough to see JFK.
JC therefore resorted to twisting around more to his right side  and was able to see JFK just before JC began to fall backwards into Mrs C lap.

If Jerry is willing, perhaps an adjusted model with  both of JCs legs turned towards the right side door and the right hand holding hat over the left leg will solve the hat problem.

[Andrew Mason]

Does that model  of JC , that Jerry just posted here, represent fairly accurately the position of JC at Z270 as proposed by Andrew?

No. It is showing JBC's position at the time of the first shot which I put around z190-195, say z193.

If Jerry is willing, perhaps an adjusted model with  both of JCs legs turned towards the right side door and the right hand holding hat over the left leg will solve the hat problem.

JBC had turned around on previous occasions and knew that JFK was on the far right side of the back seat.  He wasn't expecting him to be as far left as he was.  That would seem to be a more plausible explanation for why he turned to the right rather than because his legs were to the right.  If you sit on a thick cushion on the floor and limit the sideways position of your right leg (in JBC's case, by a car door) where do you put your left leg?:

[Charles Collins]

No. It is showing JBC's position at the time of the first shot which I put around z190-195, say z193.
JBC had turned around on previous occasions and knew that JFK was on the far right side of the back seat.  He wasn't expecting him to be as far left as he was.  That would seem to be a more plausible explanation for why he turned to the right rather than because his legs were to the right.  If you sit on a thick cushion on the floor and limit the sideways position of your right leg (in JBC's case, by a car door) where do you put your left leg?:

That would seem to be a more plausible explanation for why he turned to the right rather than because his legs were to the right.


Actually JBC told us why he turned to the right. It is because he instinctively turned towards the direction that he heard the shot come from (over his right shoulder).
Also, if you look at the various photos that show JBC’s positions throughout the motorcade, he is almost always facing partially towards the right. In order for those positions to be comfortable for the extended time frame of the motorcade, we might expect that JBC would also have his legs pointed partially towards the right. It might be that he needed to shift his position in the seat a bit towards the center of the limo in order to have more leg room on his right to do this. If so, this type of position would be compatible with the SBT.

[Andrew Mason]

That would seem to be a more plausible explanation for why he turned to the right rather than because his legs were to the right.


Actually JBC told us why he turned to the right. It is because he instinctively turned towards the direction that he heard the shot come from (over his right shoulder).
Also, if you look at the various photos that show JBC’s positions throughout the motorcade, he is almost always facing partially towards the right. In order for those positions to be comfortable for the extended time frame of the motorcade, we might expect that JBC would also have his legs pointed partially towards the right. It might be that he needed to shift his position in the seat a bit towards the center of the limo in order to have more leg room on his right to do this. If so, this type of position would be compatible with the SBT.

The issue is whether a shot through JFK could have passed directly to JBC’s thigh. I am suggesting that it did because there is consistent evidence that it occurred on the first shot and that this occurred between z190 and z200, and very strong evidence that JBC was not hit in the back by it.  Since we know that it exited JFK’s throat and would have continued in a straight line and did not hit the car, and since the thigh wound is consistent with being caused by a strike from the butt end of CE399, I am suggesting that it must have struck JBC’s thigh.  That means his left knee was out a bit to the left side.

One does not contest such an assertion by saying that both JBC’s legs may have been to the right. One has to show that the facts on which it is based are necessarily in conflict with the preponderance of the evidence.

In any event, if you sit on a cushion on the floor with your feet on the floor immediately in front of you, you will see that the natural position for a man’s legs would be for them to be spread apart. Try it. You’ll see.  With the right leg constrained by the right door, the left leg is out to the left.