When Was JBC Hit?

[Charles Collins]

”Short” is relative.  Four seconds is short too. The evidence that JFK began reacting to the first shot  before the second shot occurred is inconsistent with what you are suggesting.

  Four seconds is short too.


I understand what you are saying. But in no way (in this context) is four seconds “a very, very short amount of time”. Read the testimony of JBC where he was asked the question. I am going by memory, but he said something to the effect that he was looking to his right when he heard the shot. He “instinctively” looked back over his right shoulder to where he thought the shot came from. When he didn’t see JFK out of the “corner of his eye,” he decided to turn to look over his left shoulder.
An “instinctive” reaction typically happens very very quickly. It usually involves the amygdala (a tiny portion of the brain that is constantly working subconsciously to help protect us). Just ask that snake that missed biting my leg when I jumped out of its way before I even really saw it or knew anything. I believe that this is the type of reaction that JBC was trying to describe when he used the words “instinctively” and a very very short amount of time.

[Zeon Mason]

I don’t see how it is plausible  that Zapruders statement
 “ he heard a shot and then he saw JFK slump and then heard another shot or 2”  could support Andrews proposed sequence of a 1st shot at Z195-200 that missed and then a second shot 4 secs after that at Z270-ish.

Seems to me that   Zapruder  is backing up Betzner and Willis as well as Harold Normans perception of a 1st shot that was heard , followed by JFK slumping and only AFTER that slumping then was heard a 2nd and or 3rd shot.

[Andrew Mason]

I don’t see how it is plausible  that Zapruders statement
 “ he heard a shot and then he saw JFK slump and then heard another shot or 2”  could support Andrews proposed sequence of a 1st shot at Z195-200 that missed

?? I have never, ever suggested that any shot missed everyone. The evidence is rather strong and uncontradicted that JFK reacted to the first shot as we see when he emerges from behind the sign. I am suggesting that the trajectory as well as the evidence of the Connallys and others establish that the first shot did not strike JBC in the back/armpit. All I am suggesting is that the only wound of JBC that fits being made by CE399 (which must have been the bullet through JFK’s neck) is the thigh wound. And the trajectory through JFK at z190-195 directly to JBC’s left thigh seems to work.

Seems to me that   Zapruder  is backing up Betzner and Willis as well as Harold Normans perception of a 1st shot that was heard , followed by JFK slumping and only AFTER that slumping then was heard a 2nd and or 3rd shot.

Yes, he does.

[Andrew Mason]

  Four seconds is short too.

I understand what you are saying. But in no way (in this context) is four seconds “a very, very short amount of time”.

Yet in that “very, very brief span of time” he had enough time to recognize it as a rifle shot, conclude that an assassination was unfolding, turn around in his jump seat to attempt to see JFK, and then decide to turn back the other way.  Nellie even said he uttered “oh, no, no” before the second shot.

But we don’t have to interpret JBC’s statement.  Many others did that. The interval between the last two was about half that of the interval between 1 and 2. With Oswald shooting, that requires about 4 seconds between 1 and 2.   

Besides, if you think there was an early first shot miss, you don’t accept that his “very, very brief span of time” means what you are suggesting.

[Zeon Mason]

Ok , sorry about the misunderstanding on my part about Andrews Z195-200 shot missing.

So it’s about Z200 is the 1st shot that hits only JFK in his back and then exits his throat?
Then about 70 frames (3.5 seconds ) later , a 2nd shot approx at Z270 ish which hits only JC.

Then there’s the 3rd shot Z313 which is 43 frames (about 2.5 secs) after Z270.

That’s a rather amazing shot at Z313 at a round 8” diameter target , moving away slightly laterally at about 8mph , at a range of about 90 yards  in just 2.5 secs after the  2nd shot and accomplished using only the iron sights of the bolt action MC rifle which were fixed zero at 200 meters.

Too bad no one has ever replicated this proposed sequence and timing of shots and scored the head shot .

[Charles Collins]

Yet in that “very, very brief span of time” he had enough time to recognize it as a rifle shot, conclude that an assassination was unfolding, turn around in his jump seat to attempt to see JFK, and then decide to turn back the other way.  Nellie even said he uttered “oh, no, no” before the second shot.

But we don’t have to interpret JBC’s statement.  Many others did that. The interval between the last two was about half that of the interval between 1 and 2. With Oswald shooting, that requires about 4 seconds between 1 and 2.   

Besides, if you think there was an early first shot miss, you don’t accept that his “very, very brief span of time” means what you are suggesting.

After I posted it above, something regarding my encounter with the snake (many years ago) came back into my memory. My senses were all exaggerated and time seemed to slow down. I say this because after I had instinctively jumped backwards (before I “knew” what was happening) I watched the snake strike in what seemed like “a very slow motion.” It missed my leg because I had jumped back instinctively very quickly. And when it fell and hit the ground right in front of me a thud sounded. The thud seemed very loud, much louder than one would expect. I believe it seemed so loud and that time seemed to slow down because my senses were placed on “high alert” by the amygdala in my brain. This effect was very pronounced and I was surprised and amazed by it.
Anyway, I think that something similar might have happened to JBC when he heard the first shot. He was already facing to the right, so his “instinctive” look back could have been simply a very quick head turn. This could have happened while he was obscured by the sign in the Zapruder film. The fact that time seemed to slow down in my snake encounter leads me to believe that it could have also happened to JBC. This “time warp phenomenon” and the typical reaction time that it sometimes takes for one to realize he has been shot might have caused him to believe that he was hit by a second bullet a “very very short amount of time” later.

[Jack Nessan]

You need to watch the whole continuous feed for the hour or so beforehand.  Watson is on the air continuously.   Your allegation was that he caused Zapruder’s confusion. But we can see that Watson did not say anything to him in the hour prior to beginning the interview.  He did not mention 3 shots until after Zapruder said:

“And as I was shooting—as the President was coming down from Houston Street making his turn; it was about a half-way down there—I heard a shot, and he slumped to the side, like this. Then I heard another shot or two—I couldn't say [whether] it was one or two—and I saw his head practically open up [places fingers of right hand to right side of head in a narrow cone, over his right ear], all blood and everything, and I kept on shooting.”
I am struggling with that.  But it is because I am struggling to understand what universe you are in.

So, the only time Watson was telling the witnesses how many shots there were, was the two times he told Bill Newman and the once he told Zapruder and it all on film. You can see in the Zapruder Interview the feed is interrupted several times. What Zapruder saw or heard before his interview is apparently unknown except to you. What is known is Watson was telling him how many shots he heard during the interview. Exactly like he did with Bill Newman.

You are struggling with more than that. The universe you are not in is the one based in reality; we miss you. The universe where witnesses confirming what each other heard and saw is believed and not perverted to a completely different belief to prop up a goofy theory.

[Jerry Organ]

I'm modelling Mason's Theory (he's too cheap to pay to see it done) with his requirements for a Z200s First Shot stated earlier in this thread (Z193, being the clearest in that area, is the frame modeled). This is a draft.