Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: When Was JBC Hit?  (Read 25984 times)

Online Charles Collins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3649
Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Reply #184 on: May 08, 2024, 11:29:15 AM »
Advertisement
The bullet did not pass through the pleural lining of the chest. It went around the fifth rib until the last 10 cm, which it shattered, driving bone shards through the pleural lining and into the right lung.  If you draw a path along the fifth rib from the very exposed right armpit that was facing the SN to just below the right nipple, it is almost a straight line - just a small deflection to the left. That deflection is consistent with the impact felt by JBC and with the force required to break the fifth rib close to the spine.

The bullet then exited the chest and struck the back of the radius well above the wrist joint in the middle of the french cuff, which happens to be pressed against the chest with the entry point on the cuff at the same point as the exit point (through the right jacket pocket).

In striking the back of the radius that is pronated so the back of the forearm is against the chest, the bullet fragmented and drove bone shards down into the wrist and made a jagged tear in the cuff.  The bullet fragmented, as evidenced by the jagged cuff mark and the lead deposits as well as the large entry wound on the forearm. 

Some fragments likely deflected up away from the point of contact and some  possibly continued forward through the wrist striking the windshield.  A fragment from the second shot struck the curb near Tague. That is consistent with several fragments, one of which went just over the windshield toward Tague and two of which did the damage to the windshield frame and glass.  SA Greer (whose right ear was about 12 inches away) described a "concussion" from the second shot.  That's not all, there is a change in the appearance of the wrist and hat which is consistent with a slight change in the position of the hat in the hand. 
He does turn toward his left from that far right turn as he falls back on Nellie. He told the WC he intended to turn to the left when he was hit but wasn't sure how far around he was when hit.  Nellie told DR. Shires that he was turned right when he was hit and did not mention turning forward or to the left before he was hit:

 6 H 108:

Dr. SHIRES. She had thought, and I think correctly so, that he had turned
to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see what had happened
to the President, and he then later confirmed this, that he heard the first shot,
turned to his right, and then was hit.

I forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. He definitely remembers
turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a bullet. I forgot
about that.
Mr. SPECTER. When did Governor Connally tell you that?
Dr. SHIRES Oh, several days later.
Mr. SPECTER. While he was in the hospital?
Dr. SHIRES. Oh, yes. 4 or 5 days later and we were constructing the events.

....
Connally was in the room too, and reconstructing events, she related the story
of her last conversation with the President, relating to him, that the reception
had been warm and that she was glad he couldn’t say that people of Texas
and in Dallas didn’t like him and admire him, and she was very pleased with
the way things had gone the whole visit. Then, the next event that occurred
was that she remembers hearing a shot, he remembered hearing a shot-he
remembers turning to the right, he remembered being struck by a bullet, and
his next thought as he fell over toward his wife was “They’re going to kill all
of us,”
and that’s the last really clear memory that he expressed to me until
he remembers vaguely being in the emergency room, but very little of that,
and then he remembers waking up in the recovery room several hours later.


The bullet did not pass through the pleural lining of the chest.

I believe that it would have if JBC was sitting sideways as your idea dictates. It appears to me (and I suspect most of us) that if the limo is essentially pointed and moving directly away from the sniper’s nest (it was), and JBC is sitting sideways relative to the long axis of the limo, then the bullet entering his back below his right armpit would tend to exit on his left side (not near his right nipple). This is why I (and I suspect most of us) say JBC was not in a position to have the wounds line up the way they did during the time your idea suggests.


You are avoiding the fact that JBC himself testified under oath that he turned to his right again after he was shot. Your idea has JBC being shot after he turned to his right for the last time. There is a conflict here that you are apparently trying to avoid. Here is a snip from “Passion For Truth” by Arlen Specter, page 72:

At one point while viewing the film, Connally and his wife argued over whether the governor had fallen into his wife’s lap or she had pulled him into her lap. Connally insisted that he had fallen. Mrs. Connally insisted that she had pulled him. “No, Nellie,” “No, John,” they shot back and forth, several times. Eventually Mrs. Connally had the film halted and took Connally and Carr out to the hall for a conference. When they returned shortly, Nellie Connally and the governor were in agreement - on Mrs. Connally’s version.
Of course, I didn’t know what they said outside. But considering I was trying to gather a witness’s own account of the shooting, the Connally summit was not comforting. Later that afternoon, when the governor testified, he said, “So I merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began to - just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap.” His wife’s words.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2024, 11:30:29 AM by Charles Collins »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Reply #184 on: May 08, 2024, 11:29:15 AM »


Offline Andrew Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1287
    • SPMLaw
Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Reply #185 on: May 08, 2024, 02:23:48 PM »
Wow. You can’t even view a simple interview without attempting to twist it into this goofy story you have going on all the time. Actually, it is mind boggling unbelievable. 
Yes. I see how I twisted Zapruder's interview.  I listened to it.  Unbelievable! Who actually listens to evidence!  How else could I have concluded that Zapruder was not sure whether he heard two or three shots?  You, of course, don't think he was confused at all. You may want to review it again.
Quote
Wouldn’t it be better to just stick to proving you do not know anything about physics, firearms, witness testimony, sound analysis, and ballistics instead of branching out to proving you do not know anything about assessing the Jay Watson -Zapruder interview?
Sorry. I thought most people understood grade 11 high school physics.  Next time I post something that uses trigonometry or basic principles like conservation of momentum, should I post a link to a high school curriculum refresher for you?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2024, 02:54:18 PM by Andrew Mason »

Offline Andrew Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1287
    • SPMLaw
Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Reply #186 on: May 08, 2024, 02:52:09 PM »

The bullet did not pass through the pleural lining of the chest.

I believe that it would have if JBC was sitting sideways as your idea dictates. It appears to me (and I suspect most of us) that if the limo is essentially pointed and moving directly away from the sniper’s nest (it was), and JBC is sitting sideways relative to the long axis of the limo, then the bullet entering his back below his right armpit would tend to exit on his left side (not near his right nipple). This is why I (and I suspect most of us) say JBC was not in a position to have the wounds line up the way they did during the time your idea suggests.
It hit his fifth rib.  Turn around in a chair twisting your shoulders around with your seat facing forward and you can see that your right armpit and right nipple are in an almost straight line to the rear if not the nipple a bit to the left of that line.  The bullet does not go through the rib initially because it is an oblique strike and travels along it. But it puts force on the rib pushing it in before it plows through the thinner end of it.

Quote
You are avoiding the fact that JBC himself testified under oath that he turned to his right again after he was shot. Your idea has JBC being shot after he turned to his right for the last time. There is a conflict here that you are apparently trying to avoid. Here is a snip from “Passion For Truth” by Arlen Specter, page 72:

At one point while viewing the film, Connally and his wife argued over whether the governor had fallen into his wife’s lap or she had pulled him into her lap. Connally insisted that he had fallen. Mrs. Connally insisted that she had pulled him. “No, Nellie,” “No, John,” they shot back and forth, several times. Eventually Mrs. Connally had the film halted and took Connally and Carr out to the hall for a conference. When they returned shortly, Nellie Connally and the governor were in agreement - on Mrs. Connally’s version.
Of course, I didn’t know what they said outside. But considering I was trying to gather a witness’s own account of the shooting, the Connally summit was not comforting. Later that afternoon, when the governor testified, he said, “So I merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began to - just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap.” His wife’s words.

I am not trying to avoid a conflict.  I am trying to determine whether he turned left before he was hit.  We all know that Connally later said he thought he had started his left turn and was hit facing forward after he had turned.  I am just pointing out that he was not that clear initially.  The last thought he had could well have been "I will turn left to see JFK" but he always admitted that he was not sure how far in that turn he had gone before he was hit.

It is at least interesting that in 1966 JBC posed for Life Magazine (Life, 25Nov1966:p. 48A):


I will admit that Connally may not have been the best witness as to where he was facing when hit.  He may have had other things going through his mind.  Nellie maintained that he was turned right when he was hit.   SBT proponents want to accept Connally's WC testimony that he was facing forward, but refuse to accept his distinct recollection of the time gap between the first shot that hit JFK and the one that he felt strike him.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Reply #186 on: May 08, 2024, 02:52:09 PM »


Offline Jack Nessan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 940
Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Reply #187 on: May 08, 2024, 03:01:50 PM »
Yes. I see how I twisted Zapruder's interview.  I listened to it.  Unbelievable! Who actually listens to evidence!  How else could I have concluded that Zapruder was not sure whether he heard two or three shots?  You, of course, don't think he was confused at all. You may want to review it again.Sorry. I thought most people understood grade 11 high school physics.  Next time I post something that uses trigonometry or basic principles like conservation of momentum, should I post a link to a high school curriculum refresher for you?

11th grade? You are being kind to yourself. You presented your understanding of physics as a bullet striking a hard object. Absolutely demonstrated zero understanding of ballistics. Given your many attempts and repeated failures at physics, maybe math is not your thing. It is always comical to read a child's understanding of complex issues. Please don’t stop.

Zapruder is sitting in a chair and Watson is talking and from that you know everything he has heard after entering into the building and standing then sitting in the studio?  Did you miss the part where Watson could not wait to tell him there were three shots. Did you also imagine hearing Zapruder mention a shot halfway between the throat shot and the head shot?

JBC, Nellie, and Jackie all mention the first shot hit JBC. Are you still struggling with the basics?

Online Charles Collins

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3649
Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Reply #188 on: May 08, 2024, 03:02:16 PM »
JBC said that gap was a very very short time. It is conceivable to me that he was already in the process of turning back to the front as he reappears from behind the sign in the Zapruder film.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Reply #188 on: May 08, 2024, 03:02:16 PM »


Offline Andrew Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1287
    • SPMLaw
Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Reply #189 on: May 08, 2024, 10:51:04 PM »
11th grade? You are being kind to yourself. You presented your understanding of physics as a bullet striking a hard object.
But it doesn’t matter how hard the impact to determine the transfer of momentum. The only thing that matters is the bullet momentum before and the bullet momentum after. Since that loss of momentum is imparted to the body and to whatever it is connected to, the maximum momentum the body can gain is the amount lost by the bullet.

Offline Andrew Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1287
    • SPMLaw
Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Reply #190 on: May 09, 2024, 01:32:51 AM »
JBC said that gap was a very very short time. It is conceivable to me that he was already in the process of turning back to the front as he reappears from behind the sign in the Zapruder film.
”Short” is relative.  Four seconds is short too. The evidence that JFK began reacting to the first shot  before the second shot occurred is inconsistent with what you are suggesting.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Reply #190 on: May 09, 2024, 01:32:51 AM »


Offline Andrew Mason

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1287
    • SPMLaw
Re: When Was JBC Hit?
« Reply #191 on: May 09, 2024, 02:17:16 AM »
Zapruder is sitting in a chair and Watson is talking and from that you know everything he has heard after entering into the building and standing then sitting in the studio?  Did you miss the part where Watson could not wait to tell him there were three shots. Did you also imagine hearing Zapruder mention a shot halfway between the throat shot and the head shot?
You need to watch the whole continuous feed for the hour or so beforehand.  Watson is on the air continuously.   Your allegation was that he caused Zapruder’s confusion. But we can see that Watson did not say anything to him in the hour prior to beginning the interview.  He did not mention 3 shots until after Zapruder said:

“And as I was shooting—as the President was coming down from Houston Street making his turn; it was about a half-way down there—I heard a shot, and he slumped to the side, like this. Then I heard another shot or two—I couldn't say [whether] it was one or two—and I saw his head practically open up [places fingers of right hand to right side of head in a narrow cone, over his right ear], all blood and everything, and I kept on shooting.”

Quote
JBC, Nellie, and Jackie all mention the first shot hit JBC. Are you still struggling with the basics?
I am struggling with that.  But it is because I am struggling to understand what universe you are in.