When Was JBC Hit?

[Andrew Mason]

Yes, but again he said he felt the bullet hit him like a "doubled up fist" punching him in his back. That's not a pain reaction/feeling but it is a physical reaction that must have been immediate? I can't see how such a reaction could have been delayed? So, a delayed pain reaction is not only possible but based on his account what happened; but the physical reaction to the bullet was not delayed.

JBC said nothing about feeling the wrist or thigh strike.  He felt the bullet that hit him in the back and his reaction to that was immediate because he knew he had been hit.  Still, he said he felt no pain from it (until he reached Parkland and tried to move, which is possibly when his lung collapsed).

And don't we see that punching at circa 223? Shoulder going forward, jacket bulging. Does your scenario have him hit 2-3 seconds earlier and this shoulder reaction at circa 223?
JBC from WC testimony:

Senator COOPER. Would you describe again the nature of the shock that you had when you felt that you had been hit by a bullet?
Governor CONNALLY. Senator, the best way I can describe it is to say that I would say it is as if someone doubled his fist and came up behind you and just with about a 12-inch blow hit you right in the back right below the shoulder blade.
Senator COOPER. That is when you heard the first rifleshot?
Governor CONNALLY. This was after I heard the first rifleshot. There was no pain connected with it. There was no particular burning sensation. There was nothing more than that. I think you would feel almost the identical sensation I felt if someone came up behind you and just, with a short jab, hit you with a doubled-up fist just below the shoulder blade.

His motions are perfectly consistent with him realizing that he had just heard a rifle shot and is preparing to turn around to see JFK, which he appears to then do.  There is no time prior to that where he makes any attempt to look at JFK and JBC he tried to see him before he was hit in the back.

[Andrew Mason]

Well, we have evidence from JBC himself that he didn't feel it.

Of course he didn’t feel it. Because it happened concurrently with the back/chest and wrist wounds. You have absolutely no evidence that the thigh wound happened well before that. Only your own ideas.

My point is that there is no evidence that he was not hit in the thigh earlier than the back strike.  There can be no assurance that he would have felt it. Even if you can imagine CE399 deflecting over to the left thigh from the wrist, the characteristics of the wound are not consistent with having been made by the missile that caused the wrist wound:

The thigh wound looked like it was struck by the butt end of an intact missile.

CE 399 is intact except for a few small flakes of the lead compound missing from the butt end and a flattening deformation on one side.

My point is that the damage to CE399 occurred after passing through JFK and was caused by striking the femur butt first. It is the SBT proponents who fantasize about a bullet striking JBC's rib in the back, butt-first, with enough force to break the rib near the spine, demolish 10 cm of rib, fracture the radius, deposit flakes of lead in the wrist, create an irregular tear in the sleeve and have only one impact point.

The path from wrist to thigh is not obvious and assumes a significant change in direction of a 10 gram bullet moving at several hundred feet per second.

Place JBC’s legs with the knees to his right (as they most likely were) and all of your objections disappear.

Right.  I didn't realize that JBC was a eunuch.

[Zeon Mason]

I’m in agreement with the LNs that the Z224-225 reaction of JC  is a result of being hit by a bullet.

And unless there’s a 2nd shooter somewhere behind the JFK limo who had a different angle to bypass hitting JFK and which shooter fires a 2nd shot shot nearly simultaneously with the  1st shot that’s causing JFK to lurch forward and raise his hands to his throat, then the Single Bullet theory is the best solution.

However I’m still contesting that CE 399 was the bullet that went thru 2 bodies and thru  wrist bone and only had such  minimal deformation. The chain of custody is confusing at best and the prime witness who saw the bullet on the stretcher did not verify that CE 399 was the bullet he saw. Add that the FBI agent Odum report that claimed thus witness did verify CE 399 was a report which Odum himself denied every making. So it must be a fake report.

And because such a majority of witness heard the spacing of shots as 1……2..3 with the last 2 shots heard “back to back” then Im
still that the fright used by a solitary gunman at the 6th floor SE window of TSBD may have been a semi auto rifle.

(Note:  Harold Normans boom click click description is a problem to explain if the rifle was a semi auto rifle)

Even if Dan is right about the Willis girl having variations in her statements over many years, there’s still Betzner and Willis photos at Z186 and Z205.

Is it reasonably plausible that Willis maybe just thought the shot at Z224 was simultaneous with his clicking his camera? After all it’s only like 1 sec after Z205.

And the Willis girl does stop running  pretty much by Z195 which is about 1sec before Z224.

Maybe her  memory was making a slight error just like father Willis memory did and the 1 sec difference either way was so close to a loud noise  as to be remembered as nearly simultaneous with the shot that was heard at Z224?

[Steve Barber]

 

Please note that as soon as Connally emerges from behind the sign, two sudden up and down motions (akin to shoulder shrugs) of the shoulders occur.  This is a result of the same bullet striking Connally after having struck JFK.

[Jerry Organ]

I said the trajectory would not require a change in direction.  Whether there is a clear path from JFK's neck to thigh depends more on where it passed JBC's back as he is turned to the right, the correct downward angle and the height of the thigh.  If the shot occurred with JBC turned to the right as he was before disappearing behind the Stemmons sign and if his knees were up, as they had to be:


With his legs not together and his left leg out to the left a bit, there could have been a clear path to the thigh.  It is certainly within a range of possibilities and actually fits the model done by the Knott Laboratory.
You just need to raise the thigh.  With that you can see that it is pretty close even with your placement of JBC and trajectory.  It grazes the left side of his back.  But you are assuming some things about JBC's back and the path that are not quite correct.  The path relative to the car is close to 21 degrees down at z193 (24.03 degrees down relative to the horizontal at z186 by the survey at CE884) even assuming that the downward slope of Elm is the full 3 degrees at that point. The straight line trajectory just clears the jump seat back and passes to the level of JBC's lower back.  Also, because he has to move a bit forward of the seatback to turn like he is at z190-200, the path would pass his back farther forward, so at an even lower level.  I admit that it would be close but the trajectory path can work without striking JBC's back.  The wound in the thigh is perfectly consistent with an tumbling undamaged CE399 striking JBC in the left thigh down to the femur, leaving a small bit of lead in the femur and denting just the base as it hits the bone.  Because it was tumbling, and because the wound on the thigh was very oblique, its rotational motion may have continued and caused it to continue forward and up toward the surface of the skin or, perhaps, completely out, which could explain why it did not remain in the thigh.

So use a slope of 21 degrees relative to the car rail? OK. Can I also move Connally so he matches where he's at in the Zapruder film (ie:the Z193 I use in the graphic posted earlier).

[Charles Collins]

My point is that there is no evidence that he was not hit in the thigh earlier than the back strike.  There can be no assurance that he would have felt it. Even if you can imagine CE399 deflecting over to the left thigh from the wrist, the characteristics of the wound are not consistent with having been made by the missile that caused the wrist wound:

My point is that the damage to CE399 occurred after passing through JFK and was caused by striking the femur butt first. It is the SBT proponents who fantasize about a bullet striking JBC's rib in the back, butt-first, with enough force to break the rib near the spine, demolish 10 cm of rib, fracture the radius, deposit flakes of lead in the wrist, create an irregular tear in the sleeve and have only one impact point.
Right.  I didn't realize that JBC was a eunuch.

My point is that the damage to CE399 occurred after passing through JFK and was caused by striking the femur butt first.

If you think that the wound penetrated deep enough to strike the femur bone, then your idea is completely at odds with what the doctors who attended to JBC testified to.


Senator COOPER. I am just trying to remember whether we asked you, Doctor, if you probed the wound in the thigh to see how deep it was.
Dr. GREGORY. I did not, Senator. Dr. Tom Shires at our institution attended that wound, and I have his description to go on, what he found, what he had written, and his description is that it did not penetrate the thigh very deeply, just to the muscle, but not beyond that.

[Andrew Mason]

My point is that the damage to CE399 occurred after passing through JFK and was caused by striking the femur butt first.

If you think that the wound penetrated deep enough to strike the femur bone, then your idea is completely at odds with what the doctors who attended to JBC testified to.

Senator COOPER. I am just trying to remember whether we asked you, Doctor, if you probed the wound in the thigh to see how deep it was.
Dr. GREGORY. I did not, Senator. Dr. Tom Shires at our institution attended that wound, and I have his description to go on, what he found, what he had written, and his description is that it did not penetrate the thigh very deeply, just to the muscle, but not beyond that.

That was Dr. Gregory's understanding of Dr. Shires' understanding.  But Dr. Shires actually said what he understood and he said this:

6H106:

• Dr. SHIRES. The wound on the thigh was a peculiar one. There was a 1 cm.
  punctate missile wound over the junction of the middle and lower third of the leg
  and the medial aspect of the thigh. The peculiarity came in that the X-rays of
  the left leg showed only a very small 1 mm. bullet fragment embedded in the
  femur of the left leg. Upon exploration of this wound, the other peculiarity
  was that there was very little soft tissue damage, less than one would expect
  from an entrance wound of a centimeter in diameter, which was seen on the
  skin. So, it appeared, therefore, that the skin wound was either a tangential
  wound or that a larger fragment had penetrated or stopped in the skin and had
  subsequently fallen out of the entrance wound.
  Mr. SPECTER What size fragment was there in the Governor’s leg at that
  time?
  Dr. SHIRES. We recovered none. The small one that was seen was on X-my
  and it was still in the femur and being that small, with no tissue damage after
  the debridement, it was thought inadvisable to remove this small fragment.
  Mr. SPECTER. Is that fragment in the bone itself at the present time?
  Dr. SHIRES. Yes.
  Mr. SPECTER. What would your best estimate be as to the size of that fragment?
  Dr. SHIRES. One millimeter in diameter--one to two.
  

He wrote in his medical report, CE392, 17H20, that the missile was seen to course through the subcutaneous fat and into the vestus medialis (the inner upper thigh muscle) leaving a fragment embedded in the femur:


And here is the account of what he said 14 years later to the HSCA 7 HSCA 445:

• He was open-minded about the
  possibility that the fragment could have been just under
  the skin, but preferred to reiterate his initial impressions
  that the fragment was in the thigh bone . Dr. Shires said
  that while they explored the entire track of the missile,
  they were not " . . .exploring it as a track . . ." ; rather they
  were " . . .exploring the wound looking for a big missile
  injury ." Dr . Shires said he found little hemorrhage, so
  he felt it was likely that a high velocity missile did not
  pass through the skin causing the wound".

[Charles Collins]

That was Dr. Gregory's understanding of Dr. Shires' understanding.  But Dr. Shires actually said what he understood and he said this:

6H106:

• Dr. SHIRES. The wound on the thigh was a peculiar one. There was a 1 cm.
  punctate missile wound over the junction of the middle and lower third of the leg
  and the medial aspect of the thigh. The peculiarity came in that the X-rays of
  the left leg showed only a very small 1 mm. bullet fragment embedded in the
  femur of the left leg. Upon exploration of this wound, the other peculiarity
  was that there was very little soft tissue damage, less than one would expect
  from an entrance wound of a centimeter in diameter, which was seen on the
  skin. So, it appeared, therefore, that the skin wound was either a tangential
  wound or that a larger fragment had penetrated or stopped in the skin and had
  subsequently fallen out of the entrance wound.
  Mr. SPECTER What size fragment was there in the Governor’s leg at that
  time?
  Dr. SHIRES. We recovered none. The small one that was seen was on X-my
  and it was still in the femur and being that small, with no tissue damage after
  the debridement, it was thought inadvisable to remove this small fragment.
  Mr. SPECTER. Is that fragment in the bone itself at the present time?
  Dr. SHIRES. Yes.
  Mr. SPECTER. What would your best estimate be as to the size of that fragment?
  Dr. SHIRES. One millimeter in diameter--one to two.
  

He wrote in his medical report, CE392, 17H20, that the missile was seen to course through the subcutaneous fat and into the vestus medialis (the inner upper thigh muscle) leaving a fragment embedded in the femur:


And here is the account of what he said 14 years later to the HSCA 7 HSCA 445:

• He was open-minded about the
  possibility that the fragment could have been just under
  the skin, but preferred to reiterate his initial impressions
  that the fragment was in the thigh bone . Dr. Shires said
  that while they explored the entire track of the missile,
  they were not " . . .exploring it as a track . . ." ; rather they
  were " . . .exploring the wound looking for a big missile
  injury ." Dr . Shires said he found little hemorrhage, so
  he felt it was likely that a high velocity missile did not
  pass through the skin causing the wound".

It appears quite clear that, if there actually was anything in the femur, then it was only a very small fragment. No where does he indicate that anything the size of CE 399 penetrated deeper than what Dr. Gregory indicated.

You indicated that the damage to CE 399 was caused by it striking the femur. How it that possible? It didn’t even come close to striking the femur. This is what I am saying.[/list]