When Was JBC Hit?

[Andrew Mason]

And I know that if Connally way back when he examined individual frames had this added degree of accuracy he would would heartily agree with this unescapable conclusion!

That is very persuasive.  But I can do better.  I say that this was the first shot ie. there was no earlier missed shot. And I know that if JFK had survived the assassination attempt by Oswald, he would agree with that inescapable conclusion. Presidential credibility beats Governor credibility so you can't get any better than that.

[Jack Nessan]

To assume two people will react the same exact way is flawed reasoning. JBC’s facial expression looks like he is processing something when he emerges from behind the sign. A persons reaction does not exactly coincide with what they are experiencing. There is a time lapse between the two. Only the eyewitnesses can explain what transpired behind the sign. They are the only ones who saw and heard what transpired. The Chism’s positioned around what would be JFK at Z217 to Z218 state JFK was shot before he had gotten to them. Where is the confusion in understanding these people are explaining what happened.

John Chism: “Just as he got just about in front of me” 

Jackie and Nelie reference that JFK and JBC were hit by the same shot, as did Bill Newman and Bobby Hargis. 

 Honestly is this really this incomprehensible that something this simple cannot be rationalized and understood?

[Michael T. Griffith]

The WC apologists' posts in this thread are a sad but telling example of why nearly all the progress made on the case has been made by WC skeptics. WC apologists are chained down by the Commission's fictional one-shooter-three-shot scenario and so they are forced to come up with ludicrous explanations for evidence that deep down they know refutes the single-bullet theory.

Of all the whacky, self-evidently bogus arguments put forward by WC defenders, the claim that JFK and Connally were hit by the same bullet in Z224 has to rank in the Top 10.

Anyone with functioning eyes can see that JFK is clearly and obviously already reacting to a wound when he partially reemerges into view in Z224 as we see his left forearm nearing the level of his throat, and Jackie is clearly and obviously already noticing JFK's reaction in Z224. Unless you're committed to denying your own eyes can see, you know that these reactions must have started many frames before Z224.

Moreover, even if you force yourself to ignore the self-evident reactions in Z224, there is also the fact that in Z225, when we can see both of JFK's forearms, we see that JFK has both of his hands in a clutching formation and is bringing both hands up to the level of his throat. There is no way he could have done this in response to a shot at Z224. Humans cannot respond and move their arms that rapidly after being wounded. Not on this planet.

And then, of course, there is the fact that Connally survived his wounds and adamantly insisted he was not hit before Z228. No one knows you better than you. No one knows what your facial expressions and body movements mean better than you do. Connally had knowledge that no one else had (1) because he was the guy who actually experienced the wounding, and (2) because no one knew him better than he did.

After carefully studying high-quality prints of the Zapruder film under high magnification, Connally said he was certain beyond all doubt that he was not hit before Z228, and he identified Z234 as the moment of impact--and just four frames later, or just 4/18ths of a second later, or just 222 milliseconds later, or less than 1/4th of a second later, we see the start of the dramatic slamming down of his right shoulder, in perfect harmony with his statement that the bullet's impact felt like someone hit him hard in the back.

I know we can all see these things. It's just a question of whether or not one is willing to be honest and credible about what they prove.

[Jerry Organ]

    "Of all the whacky, self-evidently bogus arguments put forward by WC
     defenders, the claim that JFK and Connally were hit by the same bullet
     in Z224 has to rank in the Top 10."

This is another of Griffith's fantasy misrepresentations about LNers. No LNer (at least in modern times) has claimed the SBF occurred at Z224.

Moving the goal posts.

Other of his predictable lamebrain tactics is to contend things in his post is being ingored or he "noticed I didn't mention this or that." All of the stuff in his post above were addressed in detail in other threads.

[Jack Nessan]

The WC apologists' posts in this thread are a sad but telling example of why nearly all the progress made on the case has been made by WC skeptics. WC apologists are chained down by the Commission's fictional one-shooter-three-shot scenario and so they are forced to come up with ludicrous explanations for evidence that deep down they know refutes the single-bullet theory.

Of all the whacky, self-evidently bogus arguments put forward by WC defenders, the claim that JFK and Connally were hit by the same bullet in Z224 has to rank in the Top 10.

Anyone with functioning eyes can see that JFK is clearly and obviously already reacting to a wound when he partially reemerges into view in Z224 as we see his left forearm nearing the level of his throat, and Jackie is clearly and obviously already noticing JFK's reaction in Z224. Unless you're committed to denying your own eyes can see, you know that these reactions must have started many frames before Z224.

Moreover, even if you force yourself to ignore the self-evident reactions in Z224, there is also the fact that in Z225, when we can see both of JFK's forearms, we see that JFK has both of his hands in a clutching formation and is bringing both hands up to the level of his throat. There is no way he could have done this in response to a shot at Z224. Humans cannot respond and move their arms that rapidly after being wounded. Not on this planet.

And then, of course, there is the fact that Connally survived his wounds and adamantly insisted he was not hit before Z228. No one knows you better than you. No one knows what your facial expressions and body movements mean better than you do. Connally had knowledge that no one else had (1) because he was the guy who actually experienced the wounding, and (2) because no one knew him better than he did.

After carefully studying high-quality prints of the Zapruder film under high magnification, Connally said he was certain beyond all doubt that he was not hit before Z228, and he identified Z234 as the moment of impact--and just four frames later, or just 4/18ths of a second later, or just 222 milliseconds later, or less than 1/4th of a second later, we see the start of the dramatic slamming down of his right shoulder, in perfect harmony with his statement that the bullet's impact felt like someone hit him hard in the back.

I know we can all see these things. It's just a question of whether or not one is willing to be honest and credible about what they prove.

 Given how close JBC and JFK were to each other in the car. Explain JBC's wound and from where did the shot originate from if the bullet did not pass through JFK first. Was there two shooters sitting side by side in the Snipers Nest? Early on, JBC gave all kinds of statements and most do not match up with previous statements. Nellie even changed her statement to match his.

It is known that the shots originated from the 6th floor window above BRW, Jarmin, and Norman. We also know BRW said there was two shots and Jarmin describes the headshot as the second shot. You may not like SBT but it is the only answer possible unless you think JFK somehow shot JBC. That would be the only other answer.

[Michael T. Griffith]

Given how close JBC and JFK were to each other in the car. Explain JBC's wound and from where did the shot originate from if the bullet did not pass through JFK first. Was there two shooters sitting side by side in the Snipers Nest? Early on, JBC gave all kinds of statements and most do not match up with previous statements. Nellie even changed her statement to match his.

False. Connally was consistent on every major point in his various statements through at least the 1970s.

I'm baffled as to how you could think that any shot that hit Connally would have had to first hit JFK. That's just silly, even if you assume that all the shots came from the sixth-floor window.

Moreover, a gunman firing from the Dal-Tex Building or the County Records Building could have barely missed Kennedy and accidentally hit Connally instead.

It is known that the shots originated from the 6th floor window above BRW, Jarmin, and Norman. We also know BRW said there was two shots and Jarmin describes the headshot as the second shot. You may not like SBT but it is the only answer possible unless you think JFK somehow shot JBC. That would be the only other answer.

I think you're another one who's stuck in a time warp. You talk like we're in the early 1970s. Are you unaware of recent research that has utterly destroyed the SBT? Do you know anything about the ARRB disclosures about the back wound's location, about the absolute determination at the autopsy that the back wound was shallow and had no exit point, about the fragments in the C3/C4 region, etc., etc.? Are you aware that the HSCA's photographic experts found clear, powerful evidence that JFK was hit before Z190, i.e., when the sixth-floor gunman's view would have been obstructed by the oak tree? And on and on we could go.

[Jack Nessan]

False. Connally was consistent on every major point in his various statements through at least the 1970s.

I'm baffled as to how you could think that any shot that hit Connally would have had to first hit JFK. That's just silly, even if you assume that all the shots came from the sixth-floor window.

Moreover, a gunman firing from the Dal-Tex Building or the County Records Building could have barely missed Kennedy and accidentally hit Connally instead.

I think you're another one who's stuck in a time warp. You talk like we're in the early 1970s. Are you unaware of recent research that has utterly destroyed the SBT? Do you know anything about the ARRB disclosures about the back wound's location, about the absolute determination at the autopsy that the back wound was shallow and had no exit point, about the fragments in the C3/C4 region, etc., etc.? Are you aware that the HSCA's photographic experts found clear, powerful evidence that JFK was hit before Z190, i.e., when the sixth-floor gunman's view would have been obstructed by the oak tree? And on and on we could go.

This is just the same tired wore out jabber. Not one ounce of proof in any of it.

Connally’s first statement was radically different than his hospital bed statement. In the interim he had viewed the Zapruder film and adjusted his statement accordingly.

The testimony of Thomas Canning completely refutes everything you just posted. Maybe refresh your opinion by reading it.

Zapruder, on whose film you heavily rely, is a two shot witness. 

The shots all came from the 6th floor of the TSBD as per the three witnesses directly below the window. Based on this post we would have to believe they were standing shoulder to shoulder.

It is to be believed, JFK had two entrance wounds and no exit wounds, how is that even possible with no bullet being discovered in his body? Maybe ice bullets or other science fiction?

Bill Newman immediately after the assassination stated to Jay Watson, during his interview, there were two shots, and after the first he could not tell which man was hit first. But why believe someone with first hand eyewitness knowledge when you can take a wild catch all approach from pseudo scientists and half baked experts?

[John Mytton]

The WC apologists' posts in this thread are a sad but telling example of why nearly all the progress made on the case has been made by WC skeptics. WC apologists are chained down by the Commission's fictional one-shooter-three-shot scenario and so they are forced to come up with ludicrous explanations for evidence that deep down they know refutes the single-bullet theory.

WC apologists are chained down by the Commission's fictional one-shooter-three-shot scenario

Huh? It's time you got up to speed because even the Warren Commission(you know our Gods and Masters) were definitely not chained down by the SBF.

There is very persuasive evidence from the experts to indicate that the same bullet which pierced the President’s throat also caused Governor Connally’s wounds. However, Governor Connally’s testimony and certain other factors have given rise to some difference of opinion as to this probability, but there is no question in the mind of any member of the Commission that all the shots which caused the President’s and Governor Connally’s wounds were fired from the sixth-floor window of the Texas School Book Depository.

JohnM