When Was JBC Hit?

[Dan O'meara]

Her estimate was based on a review of still frames after watching the film.  Her view is inconsistent with her testimony.  We can see her looking back at JFK as he is grasping for his upper chest/throat well after z250.  She was adamant that she did not look back after the second shot. She was never asked when she thought JBC turned right after the first shot or when she thought JBC uttered “no, no , no” which she said was before the second shot. We can see JBC saying this in the z240s.

So, now Nellie's testimony is "inconsistent".
   It didn't take you much to throw your star witness under the bus! You really are a piece of work.
Now you have deemed Nellie to be unreliable you have undermined almost half of your baloney evidence for why you completely ignore Connally selecting z234 as the moment he felt he was shot.

According to Altgens his no. 6 photo at z255 was taken after the first and before any other shots. So with JBC estimating that he was hit on the second shot at z234, there is a conflict with Altgens (as well as several dozen others as to the 1…...2...3 shot pattern).

There is absolutely no conflict with Altgens 6 when it is realised that Connally's estimate of when he was shot is an estimation of WHEN HE BECAME AWARE HE'D BEEN SHOT.
This point has been made over and over and over again so it's time to pin you down on it so you can't squirm out of it.
Here are a few questions I would like you to answer:

1] Do you agree with the following science?:

"Human thought takes time to form, and so the “right now” that we’re experiencing inside our skulls is always a little later than what’s going on in the outside world. It takes 500 milliseconds, or half a second, for sensory information from the outside world to be incorporated into conscious experience."

[ https://nymag.com/speed/2016/12/what-is-the-speed-of-thought.html#:~:text=Human%20thought%20takes%20time%20to,be%20incorporated%20into%20conscious%20experience. ]

2] Do you agree that in Z-frames z231 to z234 Connally is looking a little bit to the left of centre?

3] From Connally's statement below, would you agree he picked z234 as the frame he was shot because this was when he was looking "a little bit to the left of center"?

"I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back."

[Dan O'meara]

JFK wasn't clear of the foliage until z207.
To state otherwise is a deliberate falsehood.
The idea that the assassin would shoot through the oak tree is utterly ridiculous. Any shot before z207 would have been through the branches of the oak tree.
It is slightly insane that it has to be pointed out that the assassin knew in advance where the "kill zone" was to be.
He would have been fully aware of the oak tree.
He would never have dreamed of shooting while the limo was anywhere near the oak tree.
He would have waited until JFK was out in the open.
To suggest otherwise is demented.

[Andrew Mason]

JFK wasn't clear of the foliage until z207.  To state otherwise is a deliberate falsehood.

I showed you the position of JFK when clear of the foliage.  I showed you the map and Itek’s positions of JFK at the time of Betzner, z188 and Willis #5 (z202).  Are you suggesting that Itek was deliberately spreading falsehoods?

The idea that the assassin would shoot through the oak tree is utterly ridiculous. Any shot before z207 would have been through the branches of the oak tree.

We don’t know what Oswald was thinking.  He would have been able to track the car while it passed under the tree branches. So he could easily have shot just as JFK was clear of the tree.  It is conceivable that he could have fired before. 

I am not sure what you base z207 as the time JFK was clear of the tree branches as seen from the SN.  Are you using the flawed FBI recreation?

In any event there is certainly a change in JFK’s hand and head between z188 and z198 and we have evidence that the first shot was after z186 and before z202.

[Dan O'meara]

I showed you the position of JFK when clear of the foliage.  I showed you the map and Itek’s positions of JFK at the time of Betzner, z188 and Willis #5 (z202).  Are you suggesting that Itek was deliberately spreading falsehoods?

Itek isn't deliberately spreading falsehoods, you are.
You do little else as it's the only way you can peddle your demented theory.
Your methodology for determining when JFK was clear of the foliage is a joke, which keeps it perfectly aligned with everything else about your "theory".

We don’t know what Oswald was thinking.  He would have been able to track the car while it passed under the tree branches. So he could easily have shot just as JFK was clear of the tree.  It is conceivable that he could have fired before. 

I am not sure what you base z207 as the time JFK was clear of the tree branches as seen from the SN.  Are you using the flawed FBI recreation?

In any event there is certainly a change in JFK’s hand and head between z188 and z198 and we have evidence that the first shot was after z186 and before z202.

We don’t know what Oswald was thinking.

It doesn't matter what Oswald was thinking as he never took the shots.
But we do have very strong evidence that the shooter was visualising the kill zone moments before the motorcade entered Dealy Plaza:
This is from Ronald Fischer's WC testimony:

"And I looked up and I watched the man for, oh, I'd say, 10 or 15 seconds. It was until the first car came around the corner of Houston and Main. And, then, when that car did come around the corner, I took my attention off of the man in the window and started watching the parade. The man held my attention for 10 or 15 seconds, because he appeared uncomfortable for one, and, secondly, he wasn't watching-uh---he didn't look like he was watching for the parade. He looked like he was looking down toward the Trinity River and the triple underpass down at the end-toward the end of Ell Street. And--uh--all the time I watched him, he never moved his head, he never-he never moved anything. Just was there transfixed."

While everyone was looking for the motorcade entering Dealey Plaza, the shooter was "transfixed" on the kill zone. This is what he would have been looking at:



Above is the view from the SN window the assassin was staring at, "transfixed".
As far as the assassin is concerned there is only one feature of interest - the open stretch of road beyond the oak tree.
It makes perfect sense that the assassin has already made up his mind regarding his plan of action.
The idea that he starts taking random potshots as the limo passes the TSBD won't fly. The idea that he is rushing so much he needs to fire through the oak tree won't fly.
Look at the picture above, if you were the assassin, when would you pull the trigger?


In any event there is certainly a change in JFK’s hand and head between z188 and z198 and we have evidence that the first shot was after z186 and before z202

Of course there's a change, he's waving his hand and turning his head from looking to his right to looking forward. His interaction with Mary Woodward and her colleagues has passed and he is resuming his normal position. Why on earth would he stay frozen in the same position? Your desperation to try and grab on to anything you think might prop up your demented theory is astonishing.
THERE IS NOTHING in the Z-film to indicate JFK has been shot before he passes behind the Stemmons sign.
Not a single thing other than people projecting their own delusions onto what a head turn might mean. JFK's first noticeable, visual reaction begins after he has emerged from behind the Stemmons sign.

And the single piece of evidence that exists for a shot before z202 comes from Phil Willis' discredited money-making scam.

[Andrew Mason]

Itek isn't deliberately spreading falsehoods, you are.

Do you agree that JFK was clear of the tree branches when he was between the lamp post and the Thornton Freeway sign?

If yes, what zframe does that correspond to? If it is not between z186 and z200, tell us what is wrong with the Itek analysis.

If no, what is wrong with the Secret Service December 1963 reenactment?

Simple questions.

[Andrew Mason]

You can tell old Mason got all excited when he found the Itek Map, with its confirmation bias for his Looney Tunes Theory. He jumped all over it without one bit of scrutiny.

My comparison of the Itek Map with the Cutler Plat and Topo Map showed everything was off with the Itek Map. For example, they have the limousine centered in the roadway, but it was more towards the south of the center lane. If you draw a sight-line from Itek's location for Betzner through Itek's location for the lamppost, it is not where the lamppost dissects the pergola in the photograph. To Mason's perspective-addled eye, though, it would have been a match because he needs the Itek Map for his Theory.

I agree with you that the placement of Betzner is wrong. (Itek has Betzner where Willis was.  But they have Willis on the grass off the pavement where Croft was. It appears to me that they mistook Willis for Betzner and Croft for Willis). 

One can see in z186 that Betzner is much closer to the curb than to the north pool retaining wall  I agree with your placement.  When you plot the sightline from Betzner through the lamppost it fits perfectly to what we see in Betzner's z186 photo.



So the lamp post is in the right location on the Itek map (as we would expect since they used a surveyed map). 

The Itek map plots the position of JFK.  Since the car left tire was a foot or so inside the south lane marker and since the lanes were 12 feet wide, JFK would be about 6 feet from that lane marker ie in the middle of the middle lane, which is where he is shown. So there is nothing wrong with the placement of JFK.

I have plotted the position of JFK being in line with Zapruder and Betzner at z180.  We can see that z180 is just before JFK passes by the lamp post (red line and dark blue intersection).

Betzner’s z186 photo shows JFK in line with the middle of the Stemmons sign.  Plotting that sight line on the map, we can see that JFK was opposite the lamp post at z186 (pink line).

So at z193, JFK was 7 frames (7 feet at 1 foot/frame) past the lamp post.  At that point we can see in the Secret Service frames that he was completely in the clear from the SN 7 feet past the lamp post (z193).

Nothing wrong with the Secret Service footage. But a lot wrong with how you use a muddy copy and the whiteness of the limousine to claim the foliage didn't block the view from the SN.

Where do you put JFK when he is clear of the oak tree?  What zframe do you say that corresponds to?

[Zeon Mason]

Dan made a good point about JBCs own estimate of Z234 as the approx point at which JC felt the effect of a bullet hitting him.

It’s only 0.5 sec approx after the Z 224 abrupt forward motion of JCs right shoulder.

It’s certainly without doubt well before Z270.

There do not seem to be any other forum members who agree with Andrew that JCs reaction at Z224 was merely just from hearing a shot fired at Z195 approx.

Yet  the Willis girl stopping approx Z195 and the Betzner 186 photo and Willis Z205 photo are valid reasons to consider that the 1st  loud shot heard was at Z195-200 approx.

Is there any way to reconcile a Z195 loud shot with  a Z224 loud shot?

I don’t think so because of these reasons:

1. Altgens did not hear but one shot fired prior to his Z255 photo.
2. The gap of time between Z195 and Z224 is only approx 1.5 secs which rules out a solitary gunman using an MC rifle.

So I propose a synthesis that preserves Z224 hit theory while retaining part of Andrews Z195 theory.  It is the 2 gunman theory revisited except one gunman had a suppressed rifle. Both gunman fire from locations behind the JFK limo.

gunman  no.1 was located at the TSBD  6th floor SE window

gunman no.2 was located behind JFK limo also and possibly on the same 6th floor of TSBD but at the SW window ( observed by Rowland at 12:15, this gunman had to retreat temporarily due to presence of BRW on the floor until 12:24, but after BRW left, gunman no.2 returned to the SW window by 12:26

The sequence of shots:

1. Gunman no.1 with either the MC rifle or similar loud sounding bolt action rifle fired the 1st loud shot at z195 which missed JFK, deflected by tree foliage.

Altgens, Betzer, Willis, JC , Euins , Norman heard this shot.

2. Gunman no.2 fired the 2nd shot, a suppressed shot at Z224 which hit both JFK and JC causing the reactions of both men to appear simultaneous.

Notes here:
A. Euins may have heard this suppressed shot being as close to the TSBD as he was , but few other people did. It may explain why Euins said he heard FOUR shots!)
B. The bullet fired by gunman no.2 was perhaps not an MC bullet but was a pointed shaped bullet found on stretcher by witness. The bullet was replaced with CE 399 and a fake report attributed to FBI agent Odum claimed the witness had IDd CE 399, when In fact witness had not!
C. The suppressed shot may explain late reactions of SS agents to a loud shot at Z 195 uncertain where that shot came from, thus not looking back yet to TSBD even as late as Z 207
D. Because Z195 was a miss , actions from DC man and umbrella man just before Z224 , may have been signaling this.

3. Gunman no.1 at the TSBD 6th floor SE window had reloaded his bolt action rifle since firing 3.5 secs earlier at Z195 , he fired the 3rd shot, (which is the 2nd loud shot heard ) at Z260-Z270  which is after Z 255 thus the 2nd shot heard by Altgens only after taking his Z255 photo.
(This shot missed just high of JFK s head and struck curb near Tague.)

Notes here:

C. Harold Norman on the 5th floor TSBD just beneath gunman no.1, heard this shot as the 2nd loud shot and then Norman looked at the JFK limo and saw  that JFK had slumped to his left.
4. Gunman no.1 reloads again in approx 2.7 secs and because the limo had slowed to 8mph gunman no.1 was able to score the Z313 head shot.

Final note: the above sequence also preserves the majority heard 1……2..3 shots pattern.