When Was JBC Hit?

[Zeon Mason]

Is that true that Altgens had heard only one shot /loud noise, when he took his no.6 photo at Z-255?

If so , and IF the 1st loud shot  was theoretically fired at Z195-200 ,(as proposed by Andrew Mason) , then the 2nd shot which majority of forum members here seem to agree is causing the abrupt rotation turn of JCs right shoulder at Z224 must have been a suppressed shot which Altgens did not hear.

Perhaps this might explain also the of reaction by the SS agents not occurring (seemingly) until after Z255?

Andrew keeps trying to dismiss this Z224 reaction of JC as something not caused by a bullet impacting JC , so as to preserve his version of the WC theory that only 3 loud shots were fired by a solitary MC rifleman.

The majority of the LNs and some CTs (myself included) , however , agree that the reaction of JC at Z224 is more probably due to impact of a bullet hitting JC.

Therefore I propose that an adjustment must be made to Andrews theoretical shot sequence to include  the Z224 reaction of JC caused by a suppressed shot fired by 2nd gunman, which would resolve  the Altgens issue.

[Andrew Mason]

Is that true that Altgens had heard only one shot /loud noise, when he took his no.6 photo at Z-255?

If so , and IF the 1st loud shot  was theoretically fired at Z195-200 ,(as proposed by Andrew Mason) , then the 2nd shot which majority of forum members here seem to agree is causing the abrupt rotation turn of JCs right shoulder at Z224 must have been a suppressed shot which Altgens did not hear.

Perhaps this might explain also the of reaction by the SS agents not occurring (seemingly) until after Z255?

Andrew keeps trying to dismiss this Z224 reaction of JC as something not caused by a bullet impacting JC , so as to preserve his version of the WC theory that only 3 loud shots were fired by a solitary MC rifleman.

The majority of the LNs and some CTs (myself included) , however , agree that the reaction of JC at Z224 is more probably due to impact of a bullet hitting JC.

Therefore I propose that an adjustment must be made to Andrews theoretical shot sequence to include  the Z224 reaction of JC caused by a suppressed shot fired by 2nd gunman, which would resolve  the Altgens issue.

You can’t do that. The shot sequence 1……2…3 is based on evidence from dozens of independent sources.  You try very hard to convince us that you can see a bullet striking JBC at z224, but it does not fit large bodies of independent and consistent evidence. 

You have to look at it all the evidence.  There is just too much evidence that the first shot was after z186 and struck JFK and that there was a longer pause until the next shot and then after a shorter pause, the third shot.  That excludes a loud shot at z224.  And there is no evidence whatsoever of a silent shot.

[Charles Collins]

First of all, this is not physical evidence of a missed first shot.  Physical evidence of a missed first shot would be a divot in the pavement, or in whatever it struck showing signs of being made by a bullet - such as little pieces of lead/antimony in it.  There is no physical evidence of a missed first shot.

There are equivocal movements of people in the photographic record.  By itself, no one would ever say that record shows reactions to a shot.  On the other hand, there is a mountain of witness evidence that says there was no missed first shot - that JFK reacted to being struck by the first shot.  You say witnesses are not reliable yet you cling to a few vague witness statements to interpret the photographic images to support a first shot miss.

This is the one thing Dan has right - the first shot struck JFK.  I disagree with Dan that this occurred at z222 and that JBC was struck in the back by it.  Mary Woodward and others described all the things we see in the zfilm prior to the car disappearing behind the Stemmons sign as happening BEFORE the first shot.

First of all, this is not physical evidence of a missed first shot.


It is physical evidence. A witness account is not. That is the point.

 All evidence requires interpretation. And there are a lot of experts who disagree with your interpretation (opinion).

[Andrew Mason]

First of all, this is not physical evidence of a missed first shot.


It is physical evidence. A witness account is not. That is the point.

 All evidence requires interpretation. And there are a lot of experts who disagree with your interpretation (opinion).

To be physical evidence of a shot you need something that tells you JBC’s movement could only have resulted from a bullet to the back. All the movement you see in JBC is consistent with voluntary motion reacting to hearing the sound of the first shot.

Besides, you want to use JBC’s statements of what he thought was his position at the time of the first shot to support your view. So you are relying on witness evidence that you say is not reliable.


As far as experts disagreeing with a second shot striking JBC at z271-272  (I don’t consider FBIs Robert Frazier to be a qualified medical expert)  or the bullet through JFK striking JBC in the left thigh directly, I would certainly appreciate it if you could point them out.  As far as I am aware no medical or ballistics expert has even considered the JFK throat to JBC thigh trajectory.

[Charles Collins]

To be physical evidence of a shot you need something that tells you JBC’s movement could only have resulted from a bullet to the back. All the movement you see in JBC is consistent with voluntary motion reacting to hearing the sound of the first shot.

Besides, you want to use JBC’s statements of what he thought was his position at the time of the first shot to support your view. So you are relying on witness evidence that you say is not reliable.


As far as experts disagreeing with a second shot striking JBC at z271-272  (I don’t consider FBIs Robert Frazier to be a qualified medical expert)  or the bullet through JFK striking JBC in the left thigh directly, I would certainly appreciate it if you could point them out.  As far as I am aware no medical or ballistics expert has even considered the JFK throat to JBC thigh trajectory.

Andrew, we were discussing the evidence of a missed first shot. You have inexplicably changed the subject and misapplying the quote. 

[Zeon Mason]

Please post some diagram that shows how it’s possible for a shot fired from TSBD 6th floor SE window thru JFKs back that exited  his throat to line up with JCs thigh wound without that bullet having gone thru some part of JCs  body before impacting his inner  left thigh.

The trajectory line must go thru the wrist bone of JCs right hand before entering the thigh

 The only other diagram by Andrew that I’ve seen is an extremely twisted contorted JC body that does not appear to me to line up JCs  hand with trajectory line  from JFKs throat.

So maybe Andrew can post another diagram
with some kind of correction to align JCs right hand with trajectory exit from JFKs throat without any part of JCs left shoulder/back or torso in the way of the bullet path.

[Andrew Mason]

Please post some diagram that shows how it’s possible for a shot fired from TSBD 6th floor SE window thru JFKs back that exited  his throat to line up with JCs thigh wound without that bullet having gone thru some part of JCs  body before impacting his inner  left thigh.

Here:


The key is realizing that the first shot occurred just as or just after JFK became clear of the oak tree branches as seen from the SN.. He was opposite a point between the first lamp post and the Thornton Freeway sign when he cleared those branches. 



According to the Itek map of Dealey Plaza that was used in its 1967 report, JFK was opposite the lamp post just before Betzner took his photo at z186.



Between z183 and z203 JBC was turned to the right to about a 2 o'clock position:



At z193 the angle of a shot from the SN through JFK to the car direction was 15 degrees,