Bullet mark on the manhole south side of Elm St.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Me myself i have discovered the truth re every shot in Dealey Plaza, & re one pseudo shot, & i have described all of the movements (timings) of Oswald & Co, & all of this is available in my threads in this forum.
This week i noticed that there has not been a dedicated thread re the possible bullet mark on the manhole on the south side of Elm St.
There has been lots of discussion on various threads re the actions of Foster & Walthers & Co re the manhole & the grass area nearbye.
I will copy some of that stuff into this thread.
Plus i will add new stuff, from the internet.

For starters, it appears to me that no-one has yet mentioned that
Brehm (a gawker) alerted Officer Foster & Officer Walthers
 that bullet(s) had struck Elm St (tarmac & or kerb & or grass).
Hence Foster & Walthers searched that area, including the area around the manhole. During which Tague approached Walthers, etc etc.
Foster never saw a bullet hit the manhole. Foster never said that he saw such a bullet.
Foster never saw a bullet hit the grass near the manhole. Foster never said that he saw such a bullet.
I might find sources for this info. And other stuff. I will be back.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

............................. From another thread............... quote author Dan O'meara........
"The WC didn't really have a clue about which bullet missed.
It is more likely it was the third shot that missed.
Whatever the case, be it first, second or third shot, it missed by a really wide margin.
It is felt by many that the missed shot struck a concrete manhole cover before ricocheting towards Tague.
The Allen pic below gives an idea how much the shot missed by. The red circle marks the area of the manhole cover the bullet is thought to have struck:"



I replied to Dan O'meara that............
None of Oswald's 2 shots went anywhere near that manhole. Hickey's 4 or 5 shots went north of the manhole by say 13 ft. No shot hit near the manhole.

Dan O'meara replied that..........
You know nothing about it.

I replied that........
Was there any evidence? A mark on the concrete perhaps?

Dan O'meara replied that..........
Yes, there was a mark on the concrete. And a police officer witnessed it. But you know nothing about it. Not a clue.

I replied that.............
I have a good BS meter. So, a few years ago when i was looking closely at things, i would have realized that the mark on the manhole was BS, & the police witness was BS.
The mark on the kerb near Tague had some merit. But it too might have been irrelevant, ie made by a car wheel.
But if the mark on the manhole fitted Oswald's 2 shots (it duznt), or if it fitted Hickey's shots (it duznt), then i would have spent more time on it. Life is short.
Anyhow, a mark has size & shape & direction & other things. Fill me in, i am all ears.

I replied that.............
Dan O'meara wont answer my question, so i will answer it.
No one saw a bullet hit that manhole. They did see a bullet hit Elm St (tarmac & kerb).
No one saw a bullet hit the grass near that manhole. They did see a bullet hit the grass on south side of Elm St.
Foster found a fresh mark on the south west corner of that manhole, he called it a bullet mark.
The mark was a long deep graze, parallel to Elm St.
The mark aimed about 10 ft north of Tague, & about 50 ft south of the intersection of Houston & Elm (about 80 ft south of the middle of the intersection).
The mark was imo not from a bullet (too deep)(alignment made no sense).
Re alignment, this would be from the records building, & passes low down throo trees & concrete. Or, it comes from the peristyle itself, in Houston. Or, it comes from the TUP.

Michael Griffith writes............
..............Researchers have noted that the photo of the mark indicates it did NOT come from the TSBD. The mark can be seen on the twelfth photo page in the second set of photographs in Harrison Livingstone and Robert Groden's book HIGH TREASON. One can readily see that the angle of the mark does not line up with the Book Depository, but that it does line up with the County Records Building. It might be worth recalling that a 30.06 rifle shell casing was later found on the roof of the County Records Building.

[Dan O'meara]

............................. From another thread............... quote author Dan O'meara........
The WC didn't really have a clue about which bullet missed.
It is more likely it was the third shot that missed.
Whatever the case, be it first, second or third shot, it missed by a really wide margin.
It is felt by many that the missed shot struck a concrete manhole cover before ricocheting towards Tague.
The Allen pic below gives an idea how much the shot missed by. The red circle marks the area of the manhole cover the bullet is thought to have struck:



I replied to Dan O'meara that............
None of Oswald's 2 shots went anywhere near that manhole. Hickey's 4 or 5 shots went north of the manhole by say 13 ft. No shot hit near the manhole.

Dan O'meara replied that..........
You know nothing about it.

I replied that........
Was there any evidence? A mark on the concrete perhaps?

Dan O'meara replied that..........
Yes, there was a mark on the concrete. And a police officer witnessed it. But you know nothing about it. Not a clue.

I replied that.............
I have a good BS meter. So, a few years ago when i was looking closely at things, i would have realized that the mark on the manhole was BS, & the police witness was BS.
The mark on the kerb near Tague had some merit. But it too might have been irrelevant, ie made by a car wheel.
But if the mark on the manhole fitted Oswald's 2 shots (it duznt), or if it fitted Hickey's shots (it duznt), then i would have spent more time on it. Life is short.
Anyhow, a mark has size & shape & direction & other things. Fill me in, i am all ears.

I replied that.............
Dan O'meara wont answer my question, so i will answer it.
No one saw a bullet hit that manhole. They did see a bullet hit Elm St (tarmac & kerb).
No one saw a bullet hit the grass near that manhole. They did see a bullet hit the grass on south side of Elm St.
Foster found a fresh mark on the south west corner of that manhole, he called it a bullet mark.
The mark was a long deep graze, parallel to Elm St.
The mark aimed about 10 ft north of Tague, & about 50 ft south of the intersection of Houston & Elm (about 80 ft south of the middle of the intersection).
The mark was imo not from a bullet (too deep)(alignment made no sense).
Re alignment, this would be from the records building, & passes low down throo trees & concrete. Or, it comes from the peristyle itself, in Houston. Or, it comes from the TUP.

Michael Griffith writes............
..............Researchers have noted that the photo of the mark indicates it did NOT come from the TSBD. The mark can be seen on the twelfth photo page in the second set of photographs in Harrison Livingstone and Robert Groden's book HIGH TREASON. One can readily see that the angle of the mark does not line up with the Book Depository, but that it does line up with the County Records Building. It might be worth recalling that a 30.06 rifle shell casing was later found on the roof of the County Records Building.

Dan O'meara wont answer my question,

What was the question?
I'm not aware of you asking me a question.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Dan O'meara wont answer my question,
What was the question?
I'm not aware of you asking me a question.

My question was........... Anyhow, a mark has size & shape & direction & other things. Fill me in, i am all ears.
Since then i searched the forums, & googled, & i found stuff re size & shape & direction.

EXTRA BULLETS AND MISSED SHOTS IN DEALEY PLAZA
Michael T. Griffith  1996  @All Rights Reserved  Revised on 3/4/98
https://michaelgriffith1.tripod.com/extras.htm


Griffith says...........
Dallas policeman J. W. Foster, who was positioned on top of the triple underpass, saw a bullet strike the grass on the south side of Elm Street near a manhole cover, about 350 feet from the TSBD. He reported this to a superior officer and was instructed to guard the area (Shaw and Harris 72-75; Marrs 315).

Shaw & Harris are wrong. Foster saw jfk get hit in the head, but Foster did not see any other bullet hit any other thing.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

The Complete Unraveling of the JFK Assassination: A Lost Bullet's Deadly Trail
By Brian T. Kelleher    2014  (see Chapter 13 page 197).

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=2vfVBQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

                                          Thomas H. Purvis  Author  Posted March 25, 2006  Time/Life Missing Shot
Over the past period of time, copies of the WC Survey Plat, as well as from the US Secret Service Survey Plat of 12/5/63 have been provided.
All of these copies were made directly from originals which I received directly from Mr. Robert West, and absolutely none of these survey plats address or have anything in them as relates to some purported "AREA OF BULLET SHOT ON CURB" for any location on Elm St.
In addition, there is absolutely nothing which addresses any such purported item in any of the numerous pages of survey notes from all of the various survey's which West Survey completed in Dealy Plaza.
The ABSOLUTE & ONLY reference to any curb damage is that which appears on the WC Survey Plat for the location of the Tague "hit" as has been posted.
Now to the "missing" shot of the Time/Life Survey.
During this survey work, West Survey was pointed to a spot/position on Elm St. and directed to survey it in, with the explanation that a bullet had struck the pavement at this point.
This position is directly in front of the location of the first shot/"K" position on Elm St, and slightly farther to the left side of the road, in the direction of the limousine travel.
Yet, the position is still located "behind" the view of the road sign which stood between Mr. Zapruder & his line of sight to JFK.
With the scale of the Time/Life survey plat, this would place the PAVEMENT strike/2nd shot as having occurred approximately 17.5 feet past the position identified as "K"/first shot fired.
Obviously, from what we now know of the Carcano, a second shot could not have occurred at this point, fired from this rifle.
In fact, with the known speed of the presidential limousine through this area, it would have been difficult to acquire the target and get off a second shot this quickly even with a semi-automatic rifle.
Rest assured that the PAVEMENT strike on Elm St., as demonstrated by the Time/Life Survey Plat, was thoroughly discussed with Mr. West.
Basically, Mr. West stated that they were told to survey in this point. That's it!
Other than this, Mr. West adamantly stated that there was absolutely no indications in/on the Elm St. asphalt that any bullet had struck anywhere, and they the street was thoroughtly searched for any indications of such a strike.
Nevertheless, they (West Survey) was directed to survey in this "Pavement Strike" point and classify it as the second shot fired.
Other than this, Mr. West had no knowledge of any other potential pavement and/or Curb Strike of any bullet and/or bullet fragment at any point in Dealy Plaza, other than the referenced Tague hit position over on the Main St. Curb.

    [My comments:Oswald's shot-1 at pseudo Z105 (that ricocheted off the overhead signal arm) made a hole in the floorpan of the jfklimo, & might have made a small crater in the tarmac, or it might have hit the driveshaft.]
                           [Hickey's auto burst of at least 4 shots might have hit Elm St & Main St (tarmac & kerb) & grass in 2 or more places, including the kerb near Tague.]
                               [Praps a 55 grain 223 at 3000 fps makes only a faint graze on tarmac if ricocheting at a very shallow angle, easily missed by West & Co.]

Mr. West informed me of the "rumors" of some bullet/fragment strike down at the manhole cover and the concrete inlet, however he also stated that no verification could be found that any bullet/fragment had struck in that vicinity either.
                                   [My comment: I think that West somehow missed seeing the bullet mark on the concrete on the southwest corner of the manhole.]

In fact, it was during this conversation that Mr. West volunteered that he had some photo's from some newspaper's which showed plainclothes Dallas Police down at the curb inlet, supposedly looking at damage caused here as well as one of these persons purportedly picking up a bullet out of the grass.
Mr. West volunteered to send me a copy of this photo when he could find it. Which he ultimately did.
So, during the Time/Life Survey, West Survey was directed to survey in a position on Elm Street, which was purportedly the impact point of shot# 2, to which they assigned the letter "P" for PAVEMENT impact
point.
Yet, according to Mr. West, there was not damage to the asphalt of Elm St. at thisj point, and in fact Elm St. was thoroughly searched throughout, and no indications of a bullet strike could be found.
And, that there was absolutely no mention/indications of any "Curb Strike" other than the Tague hit over on the Main St. Curb which they surveyed in, and the "claimed" bullet/fragment strike down at the curb drain inlet.
Now! I currently have in my possession five seperate survey plats from the West Survey Work done in Dealy Plaza. Each of which was made for me directly from the original survey plat, by Mr. Robert West.
In addiltion to this, I also have copies of each and every survey note which Mr. West could locate for this various survey work, and I might add, this includes the survey notes from the Time/Life Survey as well, and I can state categorically, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REFERENCE TO ANY BULLET STRIKE ONTO THE ELM ST CURB in any of this documentation.
But then of course, I probably work for the CIA and am merely another "disinformation agent" here to decieve and misdirect you.
Under the assumption that Mr. Paul Hardin, in his letter of 1978, was recalling to the best of his ability certain aspects of which he absolutely participated, and others of which he may heard, then it is easily understandable as to how certain aspects of the Time/Life Survey could have become intermingled with the Tague curb strike of the WC Survey.
Considering how many times my own memory tends to be somewhat "out of focus", and giving benefit of doubt, then this is quite understandable, that some 15 years later, the events may have begun to "blend" together.
Mr. Breneman may have remembered things this way, just as he may have marked up some copy of a survey plat to demonstrate it.
HOWEVER! There is nothing in any survey plat or in any of the survey notes to substantiate that this claim has any basis in fact.

[Marjan Rynkiewicz]

Edna Hartman shows where hole & line  in grass.
She seems to show 2 lines/shots, each over 6 paces long, starting at or near the manhole.
Years ago she said that the holes of the burrows-mounds were 1.5 inches wide & 18 in to 24 in long. Not 18 ft long.
And she said that the entrance was at a chip on the concrete kerb, ie not a chip on the manhole.
Alltho if there were 2 burrows then the chip would be at one of the burrows, not both.

                                  7: 36 long.   1991.

                              1:17 long.