Time for Truth

[Fergus O'Brien]

Quote from: Martin Weidmann on May 12, 2023, 11:43:07 PM

    Do you also accept her [Earlene Roberts'] story about a police car honking twice in front of the house?

reply from dave von pien .



"Well, that's another matter entirely. The topic I was referring to earlier was whether or not Earlene Roberts had really seen Lee Harvey Oswald enter and leave the Beckley roominghouse at about 1:00 PM on November 22."

 i dont thinks its "ANOTHER MATTER " at all . i think its about whether one  believes a particular witness to be reliable and credible OR NOT . lone nut advocates that i have seen and debated with (some well known such as bill brown who has posted here in the past ) have said that they dont consider mrs roberts reliable or truthful . in fact bill stated to me elsewhere on bob harris old forum that he considers that she waited about a week and invented the police car story , in essence lied about it .

this is far from the only witness that lone nut advocates first cite as accurate , reliable and truthful witnesses , only to then come along and dispute or attack the same witness when they say something they dont care for  . if a witness whom ever they are really did lie about one thing then we should have a concern about everything they said . helen markham is such a witness cited by lone nut advocates as a witness to j d tippits killing and cited as picking oswald from a line up for being the killer . this is the same woman attacked by lone nut advocates when she testifies that while she did not look at a watch or clock that to the best of her belief given she left home at her usual time to catch her bus to work , took her usual route to her bus stop on jefferson and given that she estimated based on that that it was likely 1.07 or 1.08 that the shooting took place . a time that in fairness is not far from t f bowleys 1.10pm time , bowley being the only witness at the scene to look at his watch and note the time . he said that at that time tippit was already shot and down on the street .i of course allow that old analogue watches could be a little off time wise be that fast or slow .

but my point here being that if i thought a witness unreliable or lying that i could not in good conscience rely upon anything they said .if a witness embellished or lied about anything then we have reason to doubt all that they said . atleast that is my philosophy , i cant say its lone nut advocate philosophy , atleast not in my experience .and my point also being that lone nut advocates (not necessarily all ) tend to both rely on witnesses and then attack what they say also .

for the record regarding mrs earlene roberts an elderly lady . i dont think on the day she would have had any reason to associate a honking police car outside with mr oswald .i feel sure that later she would have likely been asked of she remembered any other details , and then she thought/said  well I DID SEE A POLICE CAR , BUT THOUGHT LITTLE OF IT AT THE TIME . did this have any relation to mr oswald ? well there is no proof at all that it did , but one would have thought that the police could have and should have accounted for such a car if it existed .

[Fergus O'Brien]

"Conspiracy theorists never seem to want to evaluate ALL of Earlene Roberts' testimony concerning the time that Oswald spent in his room. It's true that Mrs. Roberts testified that Oswald "went on to his room and stayed about 3 or 4 minutes" [6 H 438], but it's also a fact that she also said that Oswald was in his room "just long enough, I guess, to go in there and get a jacket and put it on" [6 H 440].

No CTer ever wants to add in that last important statement made by Roberts.

And does it really take 3 or 4 minutes to wander around a closet-sized bedroom and grab a jacket, a gun, and a few bullets?" dave von pien

well it might if oswald also changed his slacks and shirt as was recorded in interrogation notes of my memory serves me . to add to that an inventory of items taken from oswalds room lists items of clothing taken from the very place where he (according to interrogation notes ) said he put the dirty clothing he took off .

you mentioned that in your opinion CTers dont like to mention certain statements or things that MAY dispute them . so them i am compelled to ask why you didnt mention that oswald said he did more than grab a jacket and gun , that he said he changed his shirt and slacks also ? .

i can think of two reasons off hand why a lone nut advocate and certainly yourself would not be wanting to mention this .. one being changing his clothes to that extent would tend to validate the 3 to 4 minute time estimate . and two being that oswald changing his shirt would blow your fiber evidence out of the water . because if the shirt he was arrested in was not the shirt he wore at work at 12.30 , and he only put it on at beckley post 1pm well then a very valid question must be asked . HOW COULD FIBERS FROM A SHIRT OSWALD ONLY PUT ON HIM ON BECKLEY POST 1PM BE FOUND ON THE RIFLE WHEN HE NEVER WORE THAT SHIRT IN WORK AT 12.30 OR ALL THAT DAY THAT HE WAS IN WORK ? .

[Fergus O'Brien]

"But if the actual time that LHO spent in that room was along the lines of 30 to 60 seconds (which is very likely much more accurate, especially given the "hurried" nature that Oswald was said to have exhibited during both his arrival and his departure from the roominghouse that day), then that would have provided Oswald with up to 3 additional minutes to travel the 0.85 mile from 1026 Beckley to 10th & Patton." dave von pien

we know she said she heard the news and was working on her tv , and then oswald walked in . so from that we can pretty much establish that oswald came home at 1pm or shortly there after .

her saying 3 to 4 minutes is an estimate of course , but we have to tie in what she said with what is noted in the interrogation notes . and that is that they note that oswald said he changed his short and slacks . so that would account certainly for 3 to 4 minutes .

we know she also said she was working on her tv , in addition she went to her window to see who was honking outside and said she saw a police car . she returned to her tv . oswald emerges from his room and leaves . she watches tv for a spell longer . then apparently was curious and got up and went to her window and sees oswald still outside by the bus stop . she watched him for a spell , saying he did not leave while she was watching him . then she returned to her tv .its funny you again omit to mention things which not only add time to oswalds departure but which also disputes your own timing estimate .now i understand we are posting comments here and we simply cant mention every single little detail in one comment . but in giving a time estimate about oswalds departure you should be relaying any evidence such as i have posted that dispute you .

[Fergus O'Brien]

dave regarding wes frazier . now im sure yoiu cite him as a proof that oswald carried a package as do all lone nut advocates . but you are now saying in essence you believe he embellished or indeed lied , i mean coming out and saying stuff that you dont believe . that  again goes back to my earlier post here . IE whether a witness is credible and truthful OR NOT . remember he also told gary mack on film if memory serves me that he saw oswald 5 to 10 minutes after the shooting having left via the rear of the building and crossing over houston street turning right at the daltex and going on to elm wearing a jacket .so is he in your mind a reliable and truthful witness if as you say he invents things / events that never happened ? . i think its a fair question .

[Fergus O'Brien]

"The eyewitnesses who positively identified Oswald and confirmed he was carrying a gun " john mytton

a few things her mr mytton .

1/ you cite helen markham as a witness to the shooting and thus to oswald being the shooter . so then one assumes you accept her time estimate for the shooting as about 1.08pm ? . one assumes you accept as true that the killer walked or ran in a completely different direction to what all other witnesses said and came and stood right in front of her looking her in the eyes . and then ran off in past her along 10th street and ran through an empty lot  contradictory to what other witnesses said . and that the man she saw kill tippit wore different clothes to what other witnesses such as calloway said the killer wore . surely if you cite her as a reliable , credible and honest witness that you accept all of the above to be true ? . its a fair question .

2/ domingo benavides never went to a line up ever and never identified oswald as the man he saw . in fact he later told the commission that he could not identify the man he saw .

3/ reynolds also failed to identify oswald as the man he saw until after he was shot in the head , it seems a bullet is good for the memory , clears the cob webs from the head .

so why have you listed  man benavides as a witness who positively identified oswald as tippits killer ? .when you know full well that he never went to a line up , in fact told cops there was no point in going because he could not identify the man and he reiterated that to the commission .please tell us why you would make this claim .

why have you listed reynolds when you know originally he said he could not identify the man he saw ? .

and why would you cite markham when you know the problems with her some of which i outlined above ? . and why would you not mention any of what i posted here ? .

as for jack tatum didnt he only come along in 15 or 16 years after the assassination ? .

all valid questions b.

[Fergus O'Brien]

to mr mytton

Mr. BALL. Now when you went into the room you looked these people over, these four men?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, Sir.

Mr. BALL. You did not? Did you see anybody--I have asked you that question before did you recognize anybody from their face?
Mrs. MARKHAM. From their face, no.

Mr. BALL. You did not? Did you see anybody--I have asked you that question before did you recognize anybody from their face?
Mrs. MARKHAM. From their face, no.

Mr. BALL. Did you identify anybody in these four people?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't know nobody.

Mr. BALL. I know you didn't know anybody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I had never seen none of them, none of these men.

Mr. BALL. No one of the four?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No one of them.
Mr. BALL. No one of all four?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

quite extraordinary testimony above from a woman you say identified oswald . how does a woman not identify a man , not identify them by clothing ,  not identify their face , in fact not recognize or know anyone of 4 men in a line up AND STILL BE LISTED AS A WITNESSES WHO IDENTIFIED OSWALD ?. now ok i know ball then led her and got her to remember what he needed her to say and say she picked a number 2 man . but how can any witness be asked such simple and clear questions and answer NO to all of them ? . i mean if she had indeed seen oswald ? . she is on film saying tippits killer STOOD IN FRONT OF HER LOOKING HER IN THE EYE . so its amazing she replied NO to not knowing any one of 4 men by their faces .

[Fergus O'Brien]

"One of the canards of the conspiracy theorists that they’ve sold to millions is that there was only one eyewitness to Oswald killing Officer Tippit, Helen Markham, and she wasn’t a strong one. But in addition to Jack Tatum also being an eyewitness to the killing, for all intents and purposes there were eight other eyewitnesses. For instance, with the Davis women " john mytton

OFFICIALLY the only witness according to the warren commission that actually witnessed the shooting was helen markham . so it is not a canard of so called CTers to say that .

jack tatum only told his story some 15 years later . even mr von pien has said he has a problem with witnesses not saying something for many years . he is not the only lone nut advocate who refuses to accept the word of such people . bill brown (i dont know if he is still a member) would certainly dispute any such CT witness .

"So there were ten witnesses who identified Oswald as the murderer"

actually no not really . they cant have identified oswald a man who they say shot tippit because only one witness officially witnessed the shooting . the davis girls were inside the house asleep and so they and all other official witnesses only saw a man walk or run and nothing more .

and the line ups by any standard were at best dishonest . oswald was made to stick out like a sore thumb .

oh and by the way you cite the opinion of bugliosi , by all means do so but it will only be opinion .i think if you must only post what he claims to be proven fact . all be it you will run into problems there also lol lol . but hey its up to you .