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Author Topic: Challenge to Cyril Wecht  (Read 6864 times)

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2023, 01:21:40 PM »
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Answered before. When he ordered the rifle, he would not have known that the scope would not be aligned. He could still just use the iron sights. And may wish to keep the scope on because his rifle would look more like the rifle of an "expert" assassin.

A good one to add to the “lame LN excuses” file.

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2023, 01:21:40 PM »


Offline Joe Elliott

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2023, 04:49:49 AM »

Granted, going a few years without practice will degrade a shooters ability to fire accurately at 500 yards. But at ranges under 100 yards?

Question:

Where is the evidence that shooters who can hit a target at 200, 300 or 500 yards, if they go four years with just a little practice, won't be able to hit a target at under 100 yards?

If you cannot provide any, than you obviously don't know much about military sharpshooters.

. . .

Of course. No answer to my question. Jack cannot provide any evidence to support this claim that someone's ability to hit a person, even at ranges under 100 yards, would greatly diminish within a few years of not practicing, even if they had the ability to shoot accurately at 200, 300 or 500 yards.

But can I meet the same sort of challenge? Find an example of someone's skill not going downhill after more than a year of no shooting practice?

Yes. And I don't have to go far in time or distance from Dallas, 1963.

The Texas Tower Shooting by Charles Whitman in 1966,

Charles Whitman was trained in the Marines and had a very similar rating to Oswald. He scored 215 (close to Oswald's 212) in his Marine's marksmen test and like Oswald was rated at the level of "Sharpshooter". Like Oswald, he had shown he could hit a human size target at 200, 300 and 500 yards.

Whitman left the Marines in December 1964. The Texas Tower shooting occurred in August 1966, a year in a half later. Oswald had been out of the Maines for four years in 1963.

How well did Whitman shoot? Unfortunately, very well. He killed 15 people and wounded 31. The longest range in which he killed someone was 500 yards. His ability to shoot accurately was not diminished by his lack of practice over the course of one and a half years.

Someone tried to take him out with a rifle fired from an airplane. Whitman managed to hit the aircraft twice before the aircraft wisely moved out of range. Even though Whitman, like Oswald, only practiced at hitting stationary targets, he was still able to hit a flying airplane. So it is no surprise that Oswald was able to hit a moving limousine which travelled at 13 mph or less during the Dealey Plaza shooting.

Of course there are some differences. Whitman bought a new and better quality rifle. But still, the Carcano rifle was certainly adequate, using the iron sights, at ranges under 100 yards.

Oswald had been out of the Marines for four years, whereas Whitman was out for only one and a half years.

On the other hand, Oswald had his rifle for over six months and had some opportunity to fire it in practice. Indeed, his wife said he did that. Whitman, in contrast, and just bought his rifle that morning and had no chance to practice with it before he started shooting from the tower.

I have no experience with shooting rifles. But my guess would be, if an experienced rifle shooter was entering a shooting contest, at targets less than 100 yards away, he would choose a Carcano rifle which he had experience with over a more expensive rifle that he had no experience with.

Offline Mike Orr

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2023, 05:13:08 AM »
One of the best Premier snipers of the Marine Corps  was Retired Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock who said that in Virginia they set up an area to duplicate the JFK Assassination so they could see how it would be to try and duplicate the Assassination of JFK and he said they could not pull it off . " Let me tell you what we did at Quantico . We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything . I don't know how many times we tried it, but we couldn't duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did ".        Kennedy assassination : Gunny Hathcock's take .      Hathcock had History's longest single kill-shot of 2,500 meters . that is 2,734 yards !

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2023, 05:13:08 AM »


Offline John Mytton

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2023, 08:11:48 AM »
One of the best Premier snipers of the Marine Corps  was Retired Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock who said that in Virginia they set up an area to duplicate the JFK Assassination so they could see how it would be to try and duplicate the Assassination of JFK and he said they could not pull it off . " Let me tell you what we did at Quantico . We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything . I don't know how many times we tried it, but we couldn't duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did ".        Kennedy assassination : Gunny Hathcock's take .      Hathcock had History's longest single kill-shot of 2,500 meters . that is 2,734 yards !

Quote
to try and duplicate the Assassination of JFK and he said they could not pull it off .

Wow, if the best of the best couldn't do it, then that must mean that Kennedy survived Dealey Plaza!?



JohnM

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2023, 09:32:51 AM »
One of the best Premier snipers of the Marine Corps  was Retired Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock who said that in Virginia they set up an area to duplicate the JFK Assassination so they could see how it would be to try and duplicate the Assassination of JFK and he said they could not pull it off . " Let me tell you what we did at Quantico . We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything . I don't know how many times we tried it, but we couldn't duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did ".        Kennedy assassination : Gunny Hathcock's take .      Hathcock had History's longest single kill-shot of 2,500 meters . that is 2,734 yards !

I don't know how many times we tried it, but we couldn't duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did "

Which justifies the conclusion that it most likely didn't happen the way the WC said it did.

Good luck trying to find a LN who is reasonable enough to even entertain that possibility.

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2023, 09:32:51 AM »


Offline John Mytton

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2023, 10:15:34 AM »
I don't know how many times we tried it, but we couldn't duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did "

Which justifies the conclusion that it most likely didn't happen the way the WC said it did.

Good luck trying to find a LN who is reasonable enough to even entertain that possibility.

Sorry Martin but these shooters from a CBS NEWS special who were not familiar with the Italian Carcano, were replicating Oswald's shots in a much shorter timespan than the now commonly accepted 8 seconds and were all trying for about a five and a half seconds, all the while doing the shooting with a non slowing down target and exposed to the elements and one rifleman achieved 3 hits, better than Oswald. So put that in your pipe and smoke it!


The stabilized Zapruder Film showing the Limo slowdown at the time of the headshot.


Btw we know that the 3 shots (which the vast majority of Dealey Plaza earwitnesses heard) were fired from just above Norman on the 5th floor of the Depository and that makes your claim that "it most likely didn't happen the way the WC said it did." absolute self serving nonsense! But I guess finding a hardcore CT who accepts the undeniable facts in this case is like finding a month of Sundays!

JohnM
« Last Edit: July 20, 2023, 10:19:41 AM by John Mytton »

Offline Brian Roselle

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2023, 02:24:28 PM »
Hathcock appeared to have had trouble duplicating the shooting. Perhaps he used a 5-6 second time limit that many have believed in since the book Six Seconds in Dallas. But another good shooter, Michael Yardley, using his best timing estimates, did not find it that difficult as mentioned in his magazine. Yardley clearly implied the Carcano was by no means a top-of-the-line gun, but it was sufficient in his 7-8 seconds testing. The following quote is from Yardley’s magazine.

“Regular readers of this magazine may remember that some years back, I was also in Dallas on the Kennedy trail. On that trip, I proved that the shots could be made with the 6.5mm Mannlicher Carcano rifle allegedly used by Oswald and fitted with a cheap ‘tin-whistle’ 4 power telescopic sight.

I made them repeatedly (half a dozen times) in the required 7-8 second time frame firing from the correct height, at the correct ranges at a vehicle moving at the correct speed using an exact replica of the Oswald rifle and scope and identical ammunition. On the first run, I hit the head target as a crossing shot at about 45 yards (which apparently Oswald missed), I also connected on the next two shots at 60 plus 90 plus yards respectively. [We did the shooting on a specially built range at the levy in Dallas - where Oswald is believed to have practiced for the shooting.]

The declared second shot - if you believe the Warren Commission official Report - was at an oblique angle (the famous magic bullet shot). It allegedly went through JFK’s back exited at his throat and went on to hit Governor Connally. The third shot - and many have suggested that there may have been more - was the killing shot where JFK’s head apparent is pushed back (leading to many suggestions that there was a second gunman positioned forward of the presidential cavalcade).

Here’s my bottom line from experience of using the weapon system. The Carcano is a poor gun, and the optical sight found upon it (as presented as evidence) was even worse - the sort of cheap thing with a moving reticule that was once used on air-rifles (I had something similar on my BSA Airsporter when I was a kid). The gun is up to the task, however - just. And, the shots with it are possible within the given time frame. I have made them again and again. Other reports notwithstanding, I believe any competent rifleman would have had a good chance of connecting at least once.”


If Yardley had tried the test taking 10 seconds, perhaps he may have found that a competent rifleman would have had even an easier time in getting those results.


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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2023, 02:24:28 PM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Challenge to Cyril Wecht
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2023, 03:33:38 PM »
Sorry Martin but these shooters from a CBS NEWS special who were not familiar with the Italian Carcano, were replicating Oswald's shots in a much shorter timespan than the now commonly accepted 8 seconds and were all trying for about a five and a half seconds, all the while doing the shooting with a non slowing down target and exposed to the elements and one rifleman achieved 3 hits, better than Oswald. So put that in your pipe and smoke it!


The stabilized Zapruder Film showing the Limo slowdown at the time of the headshot.


Btw we know that the 3 shots (which the vast majority of Dealey Plaza earwitnesses heard) were fired from just above Norman on the 5th floor of the Depository and that makes your claim that "it most likely didn't happen the way the WC said it did." absolute self serving nonsense! But I guess finding a hardcore CT who accepts the undeniable facts in this case is like finding a month of Sundays!

JohnM

It must have been a different shooter who only fired the two shots from above BR Williams or Harold Norman, or the 50 or so eyewitnesses who stated there was only two shots, which makes sense to the fact that it defies being duplicated as described by JBC. Two shots explains the assassination, with three shots it is easier to believe there was a conspiracy.