A time to receive and give (CE399)

[Dan O'meara]

So the case is solved! The chain of custody together with the definitive proof the CE399 was substituted for the real bullet by James Rowley, Chief of the Secret Service, perhaps with the knowledge and assistance of SA Richard Johnsen means that Rowley is the co-conspirator behind the assassination! Amazing!

 
It is unlike you to be so facetious but, the fact of the matter is, you have nothing else to offer on this aspect of the case.
O P Wright, the civilian who handed the bullet into the official chain of custody, categorically denies that CE399 is the bullet he handed over to SA Johnsen. He is specific that the bullet he handed over had a pointed tip, he even produces an example of such a bullet to demonstrate exactly what type of bullet he is talking about. He then repeats his denial of CE399 in front of other witnesses.
Wright is unequivocal, he is absolutely certain that CE399 is not the bullet he handed over to SA Johnsen.

Obviously, this is a massive problem for you and your beliefs concerning this case, and your response reflects the corner you have painted yourself into.

There is circumstantial evidence that the bullet is not the one Wright handed over to SA Johnsen:

A declassified 6/20/64 FBI AIRTEL memorandum from the FBI office in Dallas (“SAC, Dallas” – i.e., Special Agent in Charge, Gordon Shanklin) to J. Edgar Hoover contains the statement, “For information WFO (FBI Washington Field Office), neither DARRELL C. TOMLINSON [sic], who found bullet at Parkland Hospital, Dallas, nor O. P. WRIGHT, Personnel Officer, Parkland Hospital, who obtained bullet from TOMLINSON and gave to Special Service, at Dallas 11/22/63, can identify bullet … .”

The men who originally discovered and examined the bullet cannot identify it! The reason they cannot identify it is revealed by O P Wright in his interview with Thompson - it was not the same bullet. More importantly, when shown the bullet, neither SA Johnsen or Rowley can identify the bullet as the one given to Johnsen by Wright. Todd has no problem immediately recognising the bullet, neither does Frazier.
So why can't Johnsen and Rowley recognise it?
Is it something to do with why they destroyed the chain of custody?
It is inconceivable that an experienced agent like Johnsen would knowingly destroy the chain of custody by not putting his initials on the bullet.
It is inconceivable that Rowley, head of the Secret Service, would be unaware that by not putting his initials on the bullet he was destroying the chain of custody for such a key piece of evidence. Are we supposed to believe that both men simply forgot to perform this most basic task?
Neither agent can identify the bullet and both agents "forgot" to put their initials on this fundamentally key piece of evidence.
Todd has no problems recognising the bullet and neither does Frazier. And both men remember to put their initials on the evidence!
And Wright is adamant that CE399 is not the bullet he handed over to Johnsen. This is surely why Johnsen cannot identify CE399 - because Wright gave him a pointy-tipped bullet. This is surely why Johnsen's initials weren't on CE399 - because he put them on the pointy-tipped bullet and never saw CE399 until he was asked to identify it as the bullet he received from Wright. Something he refused to do.
We can assume Johnsen handed over the pointy-tipped bullet to Rowley, who also put his initials on it before handing over to Todd. Rowley can't identify CE399 as the bullet he dealt with that day- because he had never seen it before. The bullet he received from Johnsen was pointy-tipped.

It is with Todd that CE399 seems to materialise out of thin air. If only Todd had been asked to give evidence before the WC. But, incredibly, he wasn't.

[Alan Ford]

So the case is solved! The chain of custody together with the definitive proof the CE399 was substituted for the real bullet by James Rowley, Chief of the Secret Service, perhaps with the knowledge and assistance of SA Richard Johnsen means that Rowley is the co-conspirator behind the assassination! Amazing!

No wonder Mr. Mason is getting whupped on this thread. Let's fix his non sequitur nonsense for him:

So the case is solved! The chain of custody together with the definitive proof the CE399 was substituted for the real bullet by James Rowley, Chief of the Secret Service, perhaps with the knowledge and assistance of SA Richard Johnsen means that Rowley is one of the the co-conspirators behind the assassination cover-up! Amazing!

 

[Jerry Organ]

Rather than this rabbit-hole nonsense, are there any "LNers" on the Forum who would like to start up a new Forum (or a sub-Forum here with invitation-only posters)?

There are some posters here who want to research the assassination and/or recreate it through 3D. No problem with an "LNer" like Mason who accepts most of the evidence and official findings in its totality but who has a unique theory, which I found interesting enough to investigate through 3D. Other "LNers" might want to make a full-scale build of the SN box arrangement or the paper package used to transport the rifle, or conduct Carcano firing tests, for example. Maybe some medical experts might be tempted to join.

The rabbit-hole CTs and impossible-standard "skeptics" can stay with the Forum or request their own sub-Forum.

[Dan O'meara]

Rather than this rabbit-hole nonsense, are there any "LNers" on the Forum who would like to start up a new Forum (or a sub-Forum here with invitation-only posters)?

There are some posters here who want to research the assassination and/or recreate it through 3D. No problem with an "LNer" like Mason who accepts most of the evidence and official findings in its totality but who has a unique theory, which I found interesting enough to investigate through 3D. Other "LNers" might want to make a full-scale build of the SN box arrangement or the paper package used to transport the rifle, or conduct Carcano firing tests, for example. Maybe some medical experts might be tempted to join.

The rabbit-hole CTs and impossible-standard "skeptics" can stay with the Forum or request their own sub-Forum.

So when O P Wright categorically denies that the bullet he gave to SA Johnsen is CE399 - that's rabbit-hole nonsense??
That we are supposed to simply accept experienced agents, Johnsen and Rowley, knowingly destroyed the chain of custody by not putting their initials on this crucial piece of evidence - that's rabbit-hole nonsense is it??
When Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley refuse to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day - that's rabbit-hole nonsense??

Yeah Jerry, you go ahead and start your own sub-forum.

"There are some posters here who want to research the assassination..."

And you believe you're one of those, do you?

[Alan Ford]

Rather than this rabbit-hole nonsense, are there any "LNers" on the Forum who would like to start up a new Forum (or a sub-Forum here with invitation-only posters)?

There are some posters here who want to research the assassination and/or recreate it through 3D. No problem with an "LNer" like Mason who accepts most of the evidence and official findings in its totality but who has a unique theory, which I found interesting enough to investigate through 3D. Other "LNers" might want to make a full-scale build of the SN box arrangement or the paper package used to transport the rifle, or conduct Carcano firing tests, for example. Maybe some medical experts might be tempted to join.

The rabbit-hole CTs and impossible-standard "skeptics" can stay with the Forum or request their own sub-Forum.

 

They really are in mourning for their McAdams Safe Space!

[Dan O'meara]

Here's another one for the "rabbit-hole nonsense" category.
Darrell Tomlinson, the man who initially discovered the bullet in Parkland Hospital gives a deposition included in the WC hearings.
Note - he is not called before the Warren Commission where a very obvious question might be asked of him - he gives his deposition at Parkland Hospital to Arlen Specter and a court reporter.
The sole reason Tomlinson is asked to give a deposition is because he is the man who initially found the bullet.

Have a guess how many questions he is asked about the bullet during his deposition.
A dozen, ten, five, one?
The answer, staggeringly enough, is zero!!
He is not asked a single question about the bullet he discovered that day!
Is he given CE399 to inspect to confirm it is the bullet he found?
No.
Is he even shown a picture of CE399 to confirm whether or not it's the bullet he found?
No.
He is not asked a single question about it.

The only other person out of the six involved in the bullet's chain of custody to answer a question about it is Frazier.
Wright, Johnsen and Todd are never called to give their testimonies (if you can believe that) and Rowley, who gives a very lengthy and detailed testimony, is never once asked about the bullet.

Frazier's testimony concerning the bullet found that day begins like this:

Mr. Eisenberg: Mr. Frazier, I now hand you Commission Exhibit 399, which, for the record, is a bullet, and also for the record, it is a bullet which was found in the Parkland Hospital following the assassination. Are you familiar with this exhibit?
Mr. Frazier: Yes, sir. This is a bullet which was delivered to me in the FBI laboratory on November 22, 1963 by Special Agent Elmer Todd of the FBI Washington Field Office.

Frazier is immediately handed CE399 and asked if he recognises it. Even though he is the last person in the chain of custody to handle the bullet (I am not counting the two technicians in the FBI lab who also handled it, even though they correctly put their initials on it).
Why isn't Tomlinson, the discoverer of the bullet, asked to identify it?
Why isn't he asked a single question about his most important discovery?
Those of us down in the rabbit hole are going to suggest it's because he wouldn't have identified it as the same bullet.

Specter starts off Tomlinson's deposition like this:

"Mr. Tomlinson, the purpose of this deposition proceeding is to take your deposition in connection with an inquiry made by the President's Commission in connection with the Assassination of President Kennedy to determine from you all the facts, if any, which you know concerning the events surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy..."

"All the facts"??
I don't think so.

[Andrew Mason]

So when O P Wright categorically denies that the bullet he gave to SA Johnsen is CE399 - that's rabbit-hole nonsense??
That we are supposed to simply accept experienced agents, Johnsen and Rowley, knowingly destroyed the chain of custody by not putting their initials on this crucial piece of evidence - that's rabbit-hole nonsense is it??
When Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley refuse to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day - that's rabbit-hole nonsense??

All reasonable possibilities have to be considered. There are only 3 possibilities:

1. Is it possible that CE399 was not the bullet found on the stretcher due to accidental mixup with a bullet from some other source?

2. Is it possible that CE399 was deliberately substituted for the bullet found at Parkland?

3. Is it possible that the evidence as to the provenance of CE399 is accurate.

We can easily eliminate 1 because CE399, having been matched to the type of ammunition used in C2766 rifle (you don't even need to know that it had been fired by C2766), it could not have been accidentally substituted.

The no. 2 possibility would require one or more of the 5 people involved (Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen, Rowley, Todd) to be part of a conspiracy to plant evidence. A conspiracy would be required because there is no way that any of them could have had access to C2766 on their own after the assassination.  Johnsen went to Washington and C2766 stayed in Dallas.  So we look at the evidence.

First of all, we consider motive.  Why would a conspirator involved in the most heinous act of the 20thC plant CE399?  One answer is obvious: it would be to link C2766 and Oswald to the assassination and create a "patsy" on whom to pin the assassination. 

But it is also obvious that if CE399 was a plant, it must have been fired by Oswald's rifle prior to the assassination.  That only works if a slightly damaged bullet makes sense to how the shots, injuries and discovered fragments (in the future) would occur. So, planting CE399 before they had all that evidence, would be extremely risky for the conspirators and might just as easily provide evidence of a conspiracy if the bullet did not fit.

It would also not be known if there would be an opportunity to put CE399 into the evidence stream.  That only arose because a bullet was actually discovered at Parkland.

So now we not only have a hospital staff or Secret Service officer being part of an elaborate conspiracy, but taking the risk of tampering with evidence with the result of demonstrating a conspiracy if the evidence did not fit or if a natural opportunity to insert a bullet into the evidence did not arise.

Then we look at the inherently random events that led to CE399 being initialed by Todd (unless we have a doubt that he was telling the truth that he initialed it on 22/11/63 in Washington). Someone has to find a bullet.  Tomlinson only discovered it because it was blocking the washroom door and someone pushed it out of the way to access the washroom. Tomlinson then pushed it forward against the wall and he heard something fall. No guarantee that would happen. It could just as easily have stayed on the stretcher and found by the laundry staff (and given to someone not in on the conspiracy) or it could have gotten lost in the laundry system. If that occurred, Johnsen, Rowley and Todd would never have been involved. And if Tomlinson had given it to some other person than O.P. Wright or if Wright had given it to someone else who remained in Dallas, the chance that it would end up in the hands of a conspirator in the Secret Service would be gone.

Even if you get around the problems of inutility, risk and randomness with the no. 2 possibility and have a conspirator do something that makes no sense in order to possibly deflect scrutiny of the conspiracy or perhaps reveal it, there is a lack of evidence of such conspiracy or treasonous inclination of anyone and certainly not among these five people.  There has not been one iota of evidence suggesting that any of these five people were doing anything but trying to do their job at a time of great confusion and stress.

And that leaves the only other possibility, no.3. 

[Martin Weidmann]

All reasonable possibilities have to be considered. There are only 3 possibilities:

1. Is it possible that CE399 was not the bullet found on the stretcher due to accidental mixup with a bullet from some other source?

2. Is it possible that CE399 was deliberately substituted for the bullet found at Parkland?

3. Is it possible that the evidence as to the provenance of CE399 is accurate.

We can easily eliminate 1 because CE399, having been matched to the type of ammunition used in C2766 rifle (you don't even need to know that it had been fired by C2766), it could not have been accidentally substituted.

The no. 2 possibility would require one or more of the 5 people involved (Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen, Rowley, Todd) to be part of a conspiracy to plant evidence. A conspiracy would be required because there is no way that any of them could have had access to C2766 on their own after the assassination.  Johnsen went to Washington and C2766 stayed in Dallas.  So we look at the evidence.

First of all, we consider motive.  Why would a conspirator involved in the most heinous act of the 20thC plant CE399?  One answer is obvious: it would be to link C2766 and Oswald to the assassination and create a "patsy" on whom to pin the assassination. 

But it is also obvious that if CE399 was a plant, it must have been fired by Oswald's rifle prior to the assassination.  That only works if a slightly damaged bullet makes sense to how the shots, injuries and discovered fragments (in the future) would occur. So, planting CE399 before they had all that evidence, would be extremely risky for the conspirators and might just as easily provide evidence of a conspiracy if the bullet did not fit.

It would also not be known if there would be an opportunity to put CE399 into the evidence stream.  That only arose because a bullet was actually discovered at Parkland.

So now we not only have a hospital staff or Secret Service officer being part of an elaborate conspiracy, but taking the risk of tampering with evidence with the result of demonstrating a conspiracy if the evidence did not fit or if a natural opportunity to insert a bullet into the evidence did not arise.

Then we look at the inherently random events that led to CE399 being initialed by Todd (unless we have a doubt that he was telling the truth that he initialed it on 22/11/63 in Washington). Someone has to find a bullet.  Tomlinson only discovered it because it was blocking the washroom door and someone pushed it out of the way to access the washroom. Tomlinson then pushed it forward against the wall and he heard something fall. No guarantee that would happen. It could just as easily have stayed on the stretcher and found by the laundry staff (and given to someone not in on the conspiracy) or it could have gotten lost in the laundry system. If that occurred, Johnsen, Rowley and Todd would never have been involved. And if Tomlinson had given it to some other person than O.P. Wright or if Wright had given it to someone else who remained in Dallas, the chance that it would end up in the hands of a conspirator in the Secret Service would be gone.

Even if you get around the problems of inutility, risk and randomness with the no. 2 possibility and have a conspirator do something that makes no sense in order to possibly deflect scrutiny of the conspiracy or perhaps reveal it, there is a lack of evidence of such conspiracy or treasonous inclination of anyone and certainly not among these five people.  There has not been one iota of evidence suggesting that any of these five people were doing anything but trying to do their job at a time of great confusion and stress.

And that leaves the only other possibility, no.3.

Johnsen went to Washington and C2766 stayed in Dallas.

No. The rifle did not stay in Dallas. It was sent to the FBI lab in Washington that same day.

But it is also obvious that if CE399 was a plant, it must have been fired by Oswald's rifle prior to the assassination.

Yes, that's likely, unless it wasn't Johnsen and Rowley involved in switching of the bullet but Todd and Frazier were.

So, planting CE399 before they had all that evidence, would be extremely risky for the conspirators and might just as easily provide evidence of a conspiracy if the bullet did not fit.

Only if the conspirators did not control the investigation and evidence.

Then we look at the inherently random events that led to CE399 being initialed by Todd (unless we have a doubt that he was telling the truth that he initialed it on 22/11/63 in Washington). Someone has to find a bullet.  Tomlinson only discovered it because it was blocking the washroom door and someone pushed it out of the way to access the washroom. Tomlinson then pushed it forward against the wall and he heard something fall. No guarantee that would happen. It could just as easily have stayed on the stretcher and found by the laundry staff (and given to someone not in on the conspiracy) or it could have gotten lost in the laundry system. If that occurred, Johnsen, Rowley and Todd would never have been involved. And if Tomlinson had given it to some other person than O.P. Wright or if Wright had given it to someone else who remained in Dallas, the chance that it would end up in the hands of a conspirator in the Secret Service would be gone.

Your reasoning is sound but not complete. A bullet being found at Parkland may simply have been a bonus for the conspirators. All that was required to make it fit in the narrative was firing a bullet with C2766 into cotton wool or water. The FBI lab most certainly had the means to do both. That's the problem with just about every aspect of this case. There are always multiple possibilities.

Even if you get around the problems of inutility, risk and randomness with the no. 2 possibility and have a conspirator do something that makes no sense in order to possibly deflect scrutiny of the conspiracy or perhaps reveal it, there is a lack of evidence of such conspiracy or treasonous inclination of anyone and certainly not among these five people.  There has not been one iota of evidence suggesting that any of these five people were doing anything but trying to do their job at a time of great confusion and stress.

Indeed. The same applies to the DPD officers who searched Ruth Paine's garage and then falsified the record by claiming the BY photos were found during the second search (with a search warrant) when in truth they, or at least one of them, were/was found during the first search on Friday afternoon. How do we know this for sure? Easy, Michael Paine confirmed that he was shown a BY photo by an FBI agent on Friday evening and Fritz showed Oswald a blow up of a BY photo on Saturday morning, before the second search took place in the afternoon.

And that leaves the only other possibility, no.3.

No so fast... just because you can't imagine that a cop or Secret Service agent could do something like switching a bullet, doesn't mean you can eliminate that possibility. Hosty burned a piece of evidence because his boss SAC Shanklin told him to do so. The FBI under Hoover was many things but certainly not a democracy.