A time to receive and give (CE399)

[Martin Weidmann]

The chain of custody of CE 573 (FBI Exhibit C148) is found in CE1953 (23 H 757ff) and also CE2011 (24 H 414). 

Officer B. G. Norvell found the bullet in the wall and scratched his initials on it. He then handed it either to Officer McElroy who handed it to Officer B. G. Brown who was assigned to the Crime Search Scene Section (CSSS), or he may have handed it to Brown directly. Either way, it ended up with Officer Brown and was part of the CSSS case file. On April 25, 1963 Lt. Day of CSSS took it to the Crime Lab at Parkland Hospital to see if they could identify the type of gun that fired it.  It remained there until December 2, 1963 when it was turned over to Agent Bardwell Odum of the FBI.  It was analysed by the FBI (Frazier/Nicol) and on March 21, 1964 it was turned over to the WC. On June 12, 1964 Odum showed the bullet to Norvell who confirmed that it was the same bullet that he had obtained from the Walker residence and identified his marking on it.

The bullet was too damaged to align lands and grooves with a known bullet but they were compared visually and there were no differences identified. Nicol put it this way:

• Mr. EISENBERG. As I understand your testimony, therefore, you feel that there are sufficient identical microscopic characteristics on 572 and 573 to say that they were probably fired from the same weapon, but not enough to say that they were definitely fired from the same weapon.
  Mr. NICOL. Yes. My opinion would be based upon the finding of families of lines that would be of the order of two to four fine striations on the burr that I referred to. For a stronger identification, I would want a larger group, I would want perhaps five or six in a given area, all matching in terms of contour as well as position. But this I did not find. And so for that reason, I would not want to express this as a positive finding. However, I would not want to be misunderstood or suggest that this could not have come from that particular gun.

You bring up two basic points to which I will respond. The first one relates to the chain of custody.

You say Norvell found the bullet in the wall which contradicts what McElroy said. According to CE1953 he claimed to have found the damaged bullet "among some papers and literature".
Secondly you say that Norvell marked the bullet, which is indeed what he said in CE1953, except he couldn't remember if he marked it with "B.N." or "S". This is at least somewhat strange because Nicol found no markings, except for his own, on the bullet. Even more strange is that when Odum (according to CE2011) showed the bullet to Norvell, more than a year after he had last seen it, he allegedly identified it by his marking on the bullet. The same marking that Nicol couldn't find under a microscope!

Personally, I don't place much value on what is written in CE2011 as this is the report by the FBI to the WC in which they also claimed that Odum had shown CE399 to Tomlinson and Wright and that both men thought it was the same bullet, which we know is simply not true, as Odum is on record saying he never showed CE399 or any other bullet to anybody and it also clearly contradicts the content of the Airtel written by SAC Shacklin.

Anyway, all there is to confirm the chain of custody is Norvell saying that it was the same bullet, yet it was this same Norvell who said, according to CE1953, that he passed the bullet he had marked to Detective McElroy and that he did not observe him marking the bullet as well, thus breaking the chain of custody. In my book none of this is even remotely conclusive. But it gets even worse. Lt Day said, according to CE1953, that seven photographs were taken at the Walker residence, yet not a single one of them showed the bullet. A defense lawyer would have a field day with that!

Now let's turn to the second part; the condition of the bullet that was recovered from Walker's house.

Walker described it, in his letter to the U.S. Attorney General on 02/12/79, as being as a bullet completely mutilated and a hunk of leadwhich had no resemblance to any unfired bullet in shape or form.

In his memo to Conrad on 3/27/64 Jevons wrote that according to SA Heiberger "the lead alloy of the bullet recovered from the attempted shooting of General Walker was different from the lead alloy of a large bullet fragment recovered from the car in which President Kennedy was shot"

And, according to CE1953, the CSSS at the DPD confirmed that they could not identify the gun that had fired the bullet due to the battered condition of the bullet.

And even Nicol, in his WC testimony, agreed his conclusion was not a positive finding. He explained that he came to his "probable" conclusion because he wanted to avoid the suggestion that the bullet could not have come from that particular gun.

How anybody can argue that the bullet recovered from Walker's house was conclusively fired by the MC rifle later found at the TSBD and allegedly belonging to Oswald is completely beyond me.

[Dan O'meara]

Just to clear up a point that might be getting lost in translation regarding the "planting" of CE399.
What is NOT being said in this thread is that CE399 was planted on a stretcher in the Emergency Unit of Parkland Hospital.
For anyone actually interested in this aspect of the case I recommend this article:

https://history-matters.com/essays/frameup/EvenMoreMagical/EvenMoreMagical.htm

The take away from this article is that the bullet found on the stretcher was NOT CE399.
The bullet was originally discovered by Darrell Tomlinson on a stretcher in the Emergency Unit of Parkland Hospital.
O P Wright entered the Emergency Unit and was called over by Tomlinson to examine the bullet. Wright then contacted SA Richard Johnsen and handed the bullet to him. It was at this point the bullet entered the official chain of custody.
Josiah Thompson interviewed Wright:

Before any photos were shown or he was asked for any description of #399, Wright said: “That bullet had a pointed tip.”

“Pointed tip?” Thompson asked.

“Yeah, I’ll show you. It was like this one here,” he said, reaching into his desk and pulling out the .30 caliber bullet pictured in Six Seconds.”

As Thompson described it in 1967, “I then showed him photographs of CE’s 399, 572 (the two ballistics comparison rounds from Oswald’s rifle) (sic), and 606 (revolver bullets) (sic), and he rejected all of these as resembling the bullet Tomlinson found on the stretcher. Half an hour later in the presence of two witnesses, he once again rejected the picture of 399 as resembling the bullet found on the stretcher.”

Wright, the civilian who handed the bullet into the official chain of custody, is categorically stating that the bullet he handed over to Johnsen was NOT CE399.
Thompson took a picture of the bullet Wright said looked like the one discovered on the stretcher. It could hardly be more different from CE399:



So, we have the following situation - Tomlinson discovers the bullet, he calls over Wright, Wright gives the bullet to Johnsen, Johnsen takes the bullet to Washington and gives it to Rowley, Rowley gives it to Todd, Todd gives it to Frazier.
The chain of possession looks like this - Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen, Rowley, Todd, Frazier.
The problem is that the bullet given to Johnsen is NOT CE399 but by the time it reaches Elmer Todd it has become the bullet recognised as CE399.
This leads to the conclusion that CE399 was introduced into the chain of custody at some point.
There is strong supporting circumstantial evidence to indicate that this is indeed the case.

What mustn't be forgotten is that Wright categorically denies that CE399 was the pointed bullet he handed over to SA Johnsen.

[John Iacoletti]

Personally, I don't place much value on what is written in CE2011 as this is the report by the FBI to the WC in which they also claimed that Odum had shown CE399 to Tomlinson and Wright and that both men thought it was the same bullet, which we know is simply not true, as Odum is on record saying he never showed CE399 or any other bullet to anybody and it also clearly contradicts the content of the Airtel written by SAC Shacklin.

Not to mention, the entirety of CE2011 is anonymously written hearsay.

[Andrew Mason]

So, we have the following situation - Tomlinson discovers the bullet, he calls over Wright, Wright gives the bullet to Johnsen, Johnsen takes the bullet to Washington and gives it to Rowley, Rowley gives it to Todd, Todd gives it to Frazier.
The chain of possession looks like this - Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen, Rowley, Todd, Frazier.
The problem is that the bullet given to Johnsen is NOT CE399 but by the time it reaches Elmer Todd it has become the bullet recognised as CE399.
This leads to the conclusion that CE399 was introduced into the chain of custody at some point.
There is strong supporting circumstantial evidence to indicate that this is indeed the case.

What mustn't be forgotten is that Wright categorically denies that CE399 was the pointed bullet he handed over to SA Johnsen.

So the case is solved! The chain of custody together with the definitive proof the CE399 was substituted for the real bullet by James Rowley, Chief of the Secret Service, perhaps with the knowledge and assistance of SA Richard Johnsen means that Rowley is the co-conspirator behind the assassination! Amazing!

[John Iacoletti]

So the case is solved! The chain of custody together with the definitive proof the CE399 was substituted for the real bullet by James Rowley, Chief of the Secret Service, perhaps with the knowledge and assistance of SA Richard Johnsen means that Rowley is the co-conspirator behind the assassination! Amazing!

So he needs “definitive proof” that CE399 was substituted, but you don’t need definitive proof that CE 399 was found on Connally’s stretcher, or that it ever went through Kennedy or Connally.

How convenient.

[Andrew Mason]

So he needs “definitive proof” that CE399 was substituted, but you don’t need definitive proof that CE 399 was found on Connally’s stretcher, or that it ever went through Kennedy or Connally.

How convenient.

It does not work that way. You have to fit all this evidence with the rest of the evidence.

We have evidence that a bullet was found at Parkland. The bullet that makes its way from Tomlinson-Wright (TW) to Johnsen-Rowley-Todd (JRT) is claimed by JRT to be a bullet that was fired by the murder weapon.

TW supposedly claims that the bullet they had and handed over was not a bullet from the murder weapon.

JRT's evidence fits with the rest of the entire case. TW's "evidence" implies that evidence was deliberately falsified by JRT because this could not be a random error. That bullet could not have been substituted by carelessness or inadvertence.  IT HAD BEEN FIRED FROM C2766!

So to believe TW, one has to conclude, without any evidence to corroborate, that JRT were involved in a conspiracy to plant evidence without any evidence at all of how that could have been done let alone that the Secret Service at its highest level was involved.

[Andrew Mason]

It does not work that way. You have to fit all this evidence with the rest of the evidence.

We have evidence that a bullet was found at Parkland. The bullet that makes its way from Tomlinson-Wright (TW) to Johnsen-Rowley-Todd (JRT) is claimed by JRT to be a bullet that was fired by the murder weapon.

TW supposedly claims that the bullet they had and handed over was not a bullet from the murder weapon.

JRT's evidence fits with the rest of the entire case. TW's "evidence" implies that evidence was deliberately falsified by JRT because this could not be a random error. That bullet could not have been substituted by carelessness or inadvertence.  IT HAD BEEN FIRED FROM C2766!

To accept JRT one just has to believe that they were just doing their job. To believe TW, one has to conclude, without any evidence to corroborate, that JRT were involved in a conspiracy to plant evidence without any evidence at all of how that could have been done let alone that the Secret Service at its highest level was involved.

[Martin Weidmann]

It does not work that way. You have to fit all this evidence with the rest of the evidence.

We have evidence that a bullet was found at Parkland. The bullet that makes its way from Tomlinson-Wright (TW) to Johnsen-Rowley-Todd (JRT) is claimed by JRT to be a bullet that was fired by the murder weapon.

TW supposedly claims that the bullet they had and handed over was not a bullet from the murder weapon.

JRT's evidence fits with the rest of the entire case. TW's "evidence" implies that evidence was deliberately falsified by JRT because this could not be a random error. That bullet could not have been substituted by carelessness or inadvertence.  IT HAD BEEN FIRED FROM C2766!

So to believe TW, one has to conclude, without any evidence to corroborate, that JRT were involved in a conspiracy to plant evidence without any evidence at all of how that could have been done let alone that the Secret Service at its highest level was involved.

is claimed by JRT to be a bullet that was fired by the murder weapon.

This is simply not true. Johnsen and Rowley failed to identify the bullet and neither man as well as Todd could possibly have known which rifle fired that bullet.

JRT's evidence fits with the rest of the entire case.

Not really, but it wouldn't have been surprising if it did if the entire case was a fabrication to begin with.

TW's "evidence" implies that evidence was deliberately falsified by JRT because this could not be a random error. That bullet could not have been substituted by carelessness or inadvertence.

IT HAD BEEN FIRED FROM C2766!

I don't think that anybody disputes this. The real question that should be asked is when was it fired by C2766?

So to believe TW, one has to conclude, without any evidence to corroborate, that JRT were involved in a conspiracy to plant evidence without any evidence at all of how that could have been done let alone that the Secret Service at its highest level was involved.

And yet, we still have Wright on record as saying the bullet he was given by Tomlinson was pointed, which CE399 clearly isn't. We have SA Odum denying that he ever showed CE399 to Tomlinson and Wright which means the FBI lied to the WC in CE2011. And we don't have a shred of evidence to confirm that CE399 was ever in Parkland Hospital, as there is no chain of custody for it.

I started my proposed scenario by saying that there had to have been people in high places (who could control the investigation and the evidence) involved for the conspiracy to work. If you are not willing to even accept the possibility that some Secret Service agents were involved you will never be able to look at this case objectively.

But let's take a closer look at this case;

There is not a shred of evidence that there was a rifle in Ruth Paine's garage on 11/21/63
There is no evidence that supports the assumption that Oswald brought the MC rifle into the TSBD on 11/22/63, but there are two witnesses who described the bag Oswald carried in such a way that it was clearly to small to conceal a broken down rifle.
There is no evidence that Oswald was actually on the 6th floor of the TSBD when the shots were fired.
There is no evidence that Oswald came down the stairs within 75 seconds after  the last shot and managed to do so unnoticed by anybody, despite the fact that several women on the 4th floor were close to the stairs at that time.
There is no evidence that confirms that the MC rifle found on the 6th floor had actually been fired that day
There is no chain of custody for the bullet CE399 that confirms it was indeed the bullet found by Tomlinson at Parkland hospital.
Even Dr. Humes, when asked during his testimony, stated he did not believe CE399 could have gone through Kennedy and Connally and come out is the condition it is in.
The rifle was used to fired 100 test bullets and not a single one came even close the being in the same condition CE399 is in.
There is no evidence to confirm that the bullet fragments given to Frazier at the Secret Service garage actually came from the Presidential limo. Frazier was simply told they did.
There is serious doubt about the so-called Walker bullet now in evidence as CE573 being the bullet that was actually recovered from General Walker's home.

Some case!

The bottom line is obvious; either Oswald did it alone or there was a conspiracy. Those are the two options. When you rule out the possibility of a conspiracy simply because you can't imagine how that could have worked or who was behind it, you are left with only one option, which is that regardless of what the evidence (or lack thereof) tells you Oswald needs to be a lone assassin. The possibility of a conspiracy was never seriously investigated simply because it did not fit with Hoover's and perhaps LBJ's agenda. That's a hell of a way to conduct an investigation....