A time to receive and give (CE399)

[Martin Weidmann]

Not sure what questions I missed?  If I missed responding just send me a reminder and I will respond.

First of all, the trajectory has everything to do with CE399. The path through JFK's neck into JBC's thigh, butt-first, explains the condition of CE399 (as well as the first shot hitting JFK and the second hitting only JBC, the 1.......2...3 shot pattern, Tague's evidence, Greer, Hickey, Powers, Gayle Newman etc).

As far as the evidence that the shots came from the SN there are several witnesses whose evidence puts the shots originating there: Robert Jackson, Mrs. Cabell, and Amos Euins saw the rifle in the window during or immediately after the shots. Arnold Rowland saw a man with a rifle 15 minutes before the shots. The three men below on the 5th floor heard 3 loud shots from above them and Harold Norman heard the bolt action operated 3 times and heard 3 shells hit the floor.

Furthermore, the rifle found on the 6th floor had fired CE399. There were boxes in the SN placed in an unusual way consistent with use to support a rifle. Most witnesses said the shots all sounded similar and almost all witnesses said the shots sounded like they all came from the same location (although there was disagreement as to the location of the source).

If that's not enough, let me know and I will refer to more.

There are so many assumptions here that I don't even know where to start. Oh well, let's give it a try.

First of all, the trajectory has everything to do with CE399. The path through JFK's neck into JBC's thigh, butt-first, explains the condition of CE399

And you somehow know it was CE399 that passed through JFK and JBC? How exactly did you reach that conclusion?

Robert Jackson, Mrs. Cabell, and Amos Euins saw the rifle in the window during or immediately after the shots. Arnold Rowland saw a man with a rifle 15 minutes before the shots.

They saw which rifle? Since when does seeing a rifle equate to seeing a rifle being fired?

The three men below on the 5th floor heard 3 loud shots from above them and Harold Norman heard the bolt action operated 3 times and heard 3 shells hit the floor.

How does what they think they heard prove that a rifle was actually being fired on the 6th floor?

the rifle found on the 6th floor had fired CE399.

When exactly was CE399 fired by that rifle and how do you know?

So, now it's my turn.

What evidence is there that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was ever at Parkland hospital in Dallas?

The chain of evidence for that bullet starts at the FBI lab in Washington!

None of the four men who were involved in the discovery and transportation (to DC) were able to positively identify CE399 as the bullet they had seen on 11/22/63
In mid 1964 the WC asked the FBI to authenticate several pieces of evidence, including CE399.

Although the FBI later claimed in CE2011 that Tomlinson and Wright thought that it was the same bullet, this so-called "identification" conflicted completely with the content of an Airtel message from SAC Shanklin in Dallas, which clearly states that both men could not identify the bullet. In addition they claimed in CE2011 that SA Odum had shown the bullet to Tomlinson and Wright, but Odum is on record saying he never did such a thing and that he never had CE399 in his possession. Add to this that Wright later stated that the bullet he had seen was pointed which CE399 clearly isn't you you've got all sorts of evidentiary problems you just can't ignore.

[Andrew Mason]

There are so many assumptions here that I don't even know where to start. Oh well, let's give it a try.

First of all, the trajectory has everything to do with CE399. The path through JFK's neck into JBC's thigh, butt-first, explains the condition of CE399

And you somehow know it was CE399 that passed through JFK and JBC? How exactly did you reach that conclusion?

Robert Jackson, Mrs. Cabell, and Amos Euins saw the rifle in the window during or immediately after the shots. Arnold Rowland saw a man with a rifle 15 minutes before the shots.

They saw which rifle? Since when does seeing a rifle equate to seeing a rifle being fired?

The three men below on the 5th floor heard 3 loud shots from above them and Harold Norman heard the bolt action operated 3 times and heard 3 shells hit the floor.

How does what they think they heard prove that a rifle was actually being fired on the 6th floor?

the rifle found on the 6th floor had fired CE399.

When exactly was CE399 fired by that rifle and how do you know?

So, now it's my turn.

What evidence is there that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was ever at Parkland hospital in Dallas?

The chain of evidence for that bullet starts at the FBI lab in Washington!

None of the four men who were involved in the discovery and transportation (to DC) were able to positively identify CE399 as the bullet they had seen on 11/22/63
In mid 1964 the WC asked the FBI to authenticate several pieces of evidence, including CE399.

Although the FBI later claimed in CE2011 that Tomlinson and Wright thought that it was the same bullet, this so-called "identification" conflicted completely with the content of an Airtel message from SAC Shanklin in Dallas, which clearly states that both men could not identify the bullet. In addition they claimed in CE2011 that SA Odum had shown the bullet to Tomlinson and Wright, but Odum is on record saying he never did such a thing and that he never had CE399 in his possession. Add to this that Wright later stated that the bullet he had seen was pointed which CE399 clearly isn't you you've got all sorts of evidentiary problems you just can't ignore.

Martin, we appear to live in different universes. By your standard circumstantial evidence can never lead to a conclusion.

[Martin Weidmann]

Martin, we appear to live in different universes. By your standard circumstantial evidence can never lead to a conclusion.

Evidence should be self explanatory. It may not be perfect but there should be at least a superficial basis to reach a conclusion.
As we have just seen in the Alex Murdaugh trial, circumstantial evidence can indeed lead to a conclusion but only when it is based on conclusive facts rather than mere assumptions.

The evidence against the bullet now in evidence as CE399 is sufficiently compelling that it can not be merely assumed that it was the bullet which went through both men. Should I perhaps just simply conclude that you don't have answers for my basic questions?

Now, rather than just coming up with a cop out, why don't you just simply try to answer my questions and we'll take it from there?
Or is that too far out of your comfort zone?

[Andrew Mason]

Evidence should be self explanatory. It may not be perfect but there should be at least a superficial basis to reach a conclusion.
As we have just seen in the Alex Murdaugh trial, circumstantial evidence can indeed lead to a conclusion but only when it is based on conclusive facts rather than mere assumptions.

The evidence against the bullet now in evidence as CE399 is sufficiently compelling that it can not be merely assumed that it was the bullet which went through both men. Should I perhaps just simply conclude that you don't have answers for my basic questions?

Now, rather than just coming up with a cop out, why don't you just simply try to answer my questions and we'll take it from there?
Or is that too far out of your comfort zone?

The main reason for believing that CE399 passed through JFK's neck is that I don't see a reason to believe that CE399 was, or could have been, planted.  The evidence is that it came from Oswald's gun, it was found on JBC's gurney at Parkland, that JBC was in front of JFK, that the bullet did not strike any bone in passing through JFK. That is more than enough evidence to conclude that the bullet passaed through JFK's neck exiting his midline on a right to left trajectory and struck JBC. I accept, on all the other evidence that Oswald fired all three shots as found by the WC. Unlike others who accept the WC conclusion, I disagree with the SBT.

[Martin Weidmann]

The main reason for believing that CE399 passed through JFK's neck is that I don't see a reason to believe that CE399 was, or could have been, planted.  The evidence is that it came from Oswald's gun, it was found on JBC's gurney at Parkland, that JBC was in front of JFK, that the bullet did not strike any bone in passing through JFK. That is more than enough evidence to conclude that the bullet passaed through JFK's neck exiting his midline on a right to left trajectory and struck JBC. I accept, on all the other evidence that Oswald fired all three shots as found by the WC. Unlike others who accept the WC conclusion, I disagree with the SBT.

The main reason for believing that CE399 passed through JFK's neck is that I don't see a reason to believe that CE399 was, or could have been, planted.

Who said anything about it being planted? You may not have noticed it, but there's something very strange (IMO at least) going on regarding the rifle and the bullets. As I said earlier, the chain of custody for CE399 started in the FBI lab in Washington after the bullet now in evidence was handed over to the FBI by the Chief of the Secret Service. The FBI was told this was the bullet that had been found in Parkland! Btw, when CE399 was introduced into evidence, during the testimony of Dr. Humes, Arlen Specter did so subject to later authentication of the bullet. Such authentication never came!

A little later that same night, Frazier and his men were supposed to examine the Presidential limo, which had been brought to the Secret Service garage in Washington. When the FBI got there, Frazier found out that two men, who were not forensic experts, had already searched the car (thus contaminating the crime scene) and they had allegedly found several bullet fragments which they handed to Frazier. They had taken no photographs of the fragments in situ and they simply told Frazier that these were the fragments they had found.

So now we go fast forward in time, to the HSCA hearings, which showed a bullet (or rather a photograph of a bullet) they said was fired from the same MC rifle and was recovered from the wall in General Walker's home. As soon as Walker saw that picture he instantly tried to contact the HSCA to tell them they had the wrong bullet, because the one in the photograph was not the one he had seen in April 1963. Now add to this that in all the reports about the Walker shooting, written prior to the assassination, a different type of bullet was mentioned than the one now in evidence.

Three different events with the same problem; bullets and fragments of bullets that were all fired by the same rifle but can not be authenticated as being the actual items that were recovered from the three locations involved. That doesn't strike you as odd?

Now let me give you an alternative scenario in which Kennedy was killed by a conspiracy involving men in high positions of the US Government. Men who were in a position to control the investigation and the evidence. Now let's assume for a second that the MC rifle and three shells were purposely left on the 6th floor because they could be tentatively traced back to Oswald. However, the bullet fragments found in Kennedy's body and the limo did not match that rifle as it simply wasn't used to shoot Kennedy and it didn't need to, because within less than 24 hours after the shooting the rifle and all the bullets and fragments were in Washington. All that needed to be done was to switch the actual bullets and fragments by those that had indeed been fired by the MC rifle prior to the assassination. In this scenario there wouldn't be a need to plant a bullet at Parkland. The fact that a bullet (not related to the crime) was found by Tomlinson was in fact an added bonus. Switch the bullet that was found with the one we now know as CE399 and nobody would be the wiser.

Is this a far fetched scenario? Maybe, but it is a possibility that needs to be eliminated by the investigators and it never was. It was never even considered despite the fact that it does one thing that the official narrative doesn't do; it answers a great deal of questions for which the FBI and WC could never provide an answer. 


The evidence is that it came from Oswald's gun, it was found on JBC's gurney at Parkland, that JBC was in front of JFK, that the bullet did not strike any bone in passing through JFK.

No, that's not what the evidence is. I won't go into the rifle allegedly belonging to Oswald, because that's another conversation entirely, but what the evidence doesn't say is that CE399 came from JBC's gurney at Parkland. That is in fact nothing more than an flawed assumption based on no factual evidence whatsoever. You have to ignore a whole set of circumstantial evidence to the contrary to reach that conclusion.

I accept, on all the other evidence that Oswald fired all three shots as found by the WC.

What is this "other evidence" that makes you accept this? There isn't even a shred of evidence placing Oswald on the 6th floor of the TSBD at the moment the shots were fired. The WC never provided any evidence for that. They just said he was and never provided any evidence for it.

[Andrew Mason]

The main reason for believing that CE399 passed through JFK's neck is that I don't see a reason to believe that CE399 was, or could have been, planted.

So now we go fast forward in time, to the HSCA hearings, which showed a bullet (or rather a photograph of a bullet) they said was fired from the same MC rifle and was recovered from the wall in General Walker's home. As soon as Walker saw that picture he instantly tried to contact the HSCA to tell them they had the wrong bullet, because the one in the photograph was not the one he had seen in April 1963. Now add to this that in all the reports about the Walker shooting, written prior to the assassination, a different type of bullet was mentioned than the one now in evidence.

It is interesting that he first objected 14 years after the assassination.  Did he have a photographic memory?  The bullet had been entered as CE573 before the WC:


How could it have come about that this bullet, which is consistent with all the lands and groves on bullets fired by Oswald's rifle, gotten mixed up with the Walker bullet?

Three different events with the same problem; bullets and fragments of bullets that were all fired by the same rifle but can not be authenticated as being the actual items that were recovered from the three locations involved. That doesn't strike you as odd?

Probably not back in 1963.

Switch the bullet that was found with the one we now know as CE399 and nobody would be the wiser.

That is called planting.  Switch=plant=falsifying evidence etc.

Is this a far fetched scenario? Maybe, but it is a possibility that needs to be eliminated by the investigators and it never was. It was never even considered despite the fact that it does one thing that the official narrative doesn't do; it answers a great deal of questions for which the FBI and WC could never provide an answer. 

It is only necessary to eliminate reasonable possibilities. They did not consider, for example, that aliens did it.

The evidence is that it came from Oswald's gun, it was found on JBC's gurney at Parkland, that JBC was in front of JFK, that the bullet did not strike any bone in passing through JFK.

No, that's not what the evidence is. I won't go into the rifle allegedly belonging to Oswald, because that's another conversation entirely, but what the evidence doesn't say is that CE399 came from JBC's gurney at Parkland. That is in fact nothing more than an flawed assumption based on no factual evidence whatsoever. You have to ignore a whole set of circumstantial evidence to the contrary to reach that conclusion.

So that bullet disappeared and did not end up in the car?

I accept, on all the other evidence that Oswald fired all three shots as found by the WC.

What is this "other evidence" that makes you accept this? There isn't even a shred of evidence placing Oswald on the 6th floor of the TSBD at the moment the shots were fired. The WC never provided any evidence for that. They just said he was and never provided any evidence for it.

You should read Bugliosi's book. It is circumstantial, but it is very compelling.  Leaving the TSBD without permission, hurrying home to pick up his revolver - the same one used to kill Tippit, punching the arresting officer in the face as he uttered "well, it's all over now" as he reached for his gun ......  Not difficult to draw an inference of there, even without the Walker shooting evidence.

[Martin Weidmann]

It is interesting that he first objected 14 years after the assassination.  Did he have a photographic memory?  The bullet had been entered as CE573 before the WC:


How could it have come about that this bullet, which is consistent with all the lands and groves on bullets fired by Oswald's rifle, gotten mixed up with the Walker bullet?

Probably not back in 1963.
That is called planting.  Switch=plant=falsifying evidence etc.
It is only necessary to eliminate reasonable possibilities. They did not consider, for example, that aliens did it.
So that bullet disappeared and did not end up in the car?
You should read Bugliosi's book. It is circumstantial, but it is very compelling.  Leaving the TSBD without permission, hurrying home to pick up his revolver - the same one used to kill Tippit, punching the arresting officer in the face as he uttered "well, it's all over now" as he reached for his gun ......  Not difficult to draw an inference of there, even without the Walker shooting evidence.

It is interesting that he first objected 14 years after the assassination.  Did he have a photographic memory?  The bullet had been entered as CE573 before the WC:

Walker wasn't aware of the problem until he saw the picture of the bullet during the HSCA hearings. Not really surprising because until the HSCA investigation all the evidence was locked away at the National Archives. He then instantly objected and was completely ignored by the HSCA. He may well have had a photographic memory. I don't know. What I do know is that all the DPD reports on the Walker shooting, written prior to the assassination, mention a different type of bullet. Are we really to believe that all the people who wrote those reports got the type of bullet wrong in exactly the same way?

How could it have come about that this bullet, which is consistent with all the lands and groves on bullets fired by Oswald's rifle, gotten mixed up with the Walker bullet?

Duh, if the scenario I proposed is correct, it was most likely switched on purpose so it could be used to argue that Oswald had a violent history.

Probably not back in 1963.

We are not in 1963! Doesn't it strike you as odd today?

It is only necessary to eliminate reasonable possibilities. They did not consider, for example, that aliens did it.

So, manipulation of evidence by law enforcement isn't a reasonable possibility to consider? Is that what you are saying?

So that bullet disappeared and did not end up in the car?

Are you purposely pretending not to understand what I have said? And if so, why?

If you are still talking about the bullet we now know as CE399 than the answer is, no it did disappear nor did it end up in the car. It's evidentiary life did not begin until it was delivered to the FBI lab in Washington. In my scenario CE399 was never in Dallas, wasn't found on a stretcher at Parkland and was not fired on 11/22/63

You should read Bugliosi's book. It is circumstantial, but it is very compelling.  Leaving the TSBD without permission, hurrying home to pick up his revolver - the same one used to kill Tippit, punching the arresting officer in the face as he uttered "well, it's all over now" as he reached for his gun ......  Not difficult to draw an inference of there, even without the Walker shooting evidence.

And open goes another Pandora's box....

Leaving the TSBD without permission

If that's what really happened, then I agree it's problematic. However, it's most certainly not conclusive as there are at least two possible reasons why Oswald left the TSBD so quickly. The first one is that he did the shooting and wanted to get out of there as quickly as he could. The second one is that, when he heard the shots and learned that Kennedy was hit, he understood that he had been set up for the murder and he simply panicked. The latter would of course also require him to be involved in what was going on, as it's highly unlikely that it would have been possible to set him up as a patsy without him being involved in some scheme or another.

Having said this, his behavior after he left the TSBD is also strange. Why would he get on a bus that would take him directly back to the crime scene? Why not take a bus in the other direction? And why would he offer his cab to a woman if he was truly in a rush to get out of there? It doesn't make any sense.

hurrying home to pick up his revolver

He apparently admitted to Fritz that he did pick up his revolver, which he said he had bought in Fort Worth some months earlier.

- the same one used to kill Tippit,

That's an assumption for which there is no evidence. Even worse, there is no chain of custody for the revolver they claimed belonged to Oswald. Hill carried it around with him for several hours before he had some officers in the DPD lunchroom put their mark on it, despite the fact that some were not even at the Texas Theater when Oswald was arrested.

punching the arresting officer in the face as he uttered "well, it's all over now" as he reached for his gun

Too bad that not one single witness inside the Texas Theater heard Oswald say those words or saw him reaching for his gun.

This is precisely the kind of thing why Bugliosi has very little credibility. In a strong case, even a strong circumstantial one, you don't need this kind of "evidence". The mere fact that he did use this kind of BS material in his prosecutorial brief (which is basically what his book is) exposes the weakness of his case.