LNers Can't Explain the Two Back-of-Head Bullet Fragments

[Michael T. Griffith]

The red arrow in that right lateral view points to a fragment that appears to be imbedded in the frontal skull bone. Where is that fragment in the anterior view? Where is the 7mm x 2mm fragment in the anterior view?

This is just silly. I already refuted this silliness. Please go back and read my previous replies on this issue. You are blundering horrendously.

Of your sources, Drs Smith and Fillinger only said that they had not seen it, not that it had never happened in all medical forensic history. Dr Green only said that "it would generally not occur," which implies that it does. Dr Berg was the only one to deliver an unequivocal "No", referencing DiMaio's [Gunshot Wounds.

You're quoting from my section on whether FMJ bullets leave numerous fragments inside a skull, not whether they ever deposit a fragment at/near the entry point on a skull. This is another severe problem with the lone-gunman scenario: FMJ bullets do not shatter into dozens of fragments when they penetrate skulls. The FMJ bullets in the WC's wound ballistics test did not do this. Nor did the FMJ bullets in Lattimer's test. Nor did the FMJ bullets in the Failure Analysis test.

But DiMaio has this to say about the subject:

"In gunshot wounds of the skull, a large fragment of lead may be deposited between the scalp and the outer table of the skull at the entrance site. This piece of lead is sheared off the bullet as it enters. With lead .32 revolver bullets and less commonly with .38 bullets, this fragment often has a “C” or comma-shaped configuration (Figure 11.7). Rarely, the tip of the jacket of a full metal jacketed bullet is so deposited." (DiMaio, Gunshot Wounds:  Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques, 2nd Ed. Ch 11)

That is, Berg's source directly contradicts Berg's position. And says that FMJ bullets do indeed shear off bits on the outer table.

I will charitably assume that you made an honest mistake here and simply failed to read the surrounding paragraphs and did not realize you were misrepresenting what DiMaoi said. Here's what DiMaoi said about FMJ bullets leaving numerous fragments (a "snowstorm") inside a skull (which we see in the right front on JFK's lateral autopsy x-ray):

In x-rays of through-and-through gunshot wounds, the presence of small
fragments of metal along the wound track virtually rules out full metal-
jacketed ammunition.. . . In rare instances, involving full metal-jacketed
centerfire rifle bullets, a few small, dust-like fragments of lead may be
seen on x-ray if the bullet perforates bone. One of the most characteristic
x-rays and one that will indicate thetype of weapon and ammunition used
is that seen from centerfire rifles firing hunting ammunition. In such a case,
one will see a “lead snowstorm” [Figure 11.4]. In high-quality x-rays,
the majority of the fragments visualized have a fine “dust-like” quality.
Such a picture rules out full metal-jacketed rifle ammunition or a shotgun slug.
(Gunshot Wounds, CRC Press, Boca Raton, 1999, p. 318, emphasis added).

Did you just miss this? He specifically says that when FMJ bullets do fragment inside skulls, they leave "few" fragments, and that if the x-rays show numerous fragments ("lead snowstorm") this "rules out full metal-jacketed ammunition."

So Berg was not misrepresenting DiMaio. You are. DiMaio said that on those rare occasins when FMJ bullets fragment inside skulls they will produce "few" fragments, and that if x-rays show numerous fragments in the skull, this "rules out" FMJ ammo as the culprit. JFK's skull x-rays show a "snowstorm" of some 40 small fragments in the right-frontal area, which rules out FMJ ammo.

Now, as for DiMaio's statement about fragments being left at the entry site on skulls, he is clearly focusing on lead bullets fired from pistols. Then, he says that in rare cases ("rarely") the tip of an FMJ bullet will be deposited at the entry site, which has nothing to do with the fragments deposited on the outer table of JFK's skull because the nose and tail of the alleged offending FMJ bullet were recovered, which means those fragments would have to be from the cross-section of an FMJ bullet, a physical impossibility, as even wound ballistics expert Dr. Larry S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n has acknowledged.

I thought we all already knew that the nose and tail of the alleged Oswald FMJ headshot bullet were recovered and that therefore any fragments deposited near/at the entry site would have to come from the bullet's cross-section (composed of lead).

Here's what S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n said about this in 1998 in explaining why the 6.5 mm object could not be a bullet fragment:

I’m not sure just what that 6.5 mm fragment is. One thing I’m sure it is not is a cross-section
from the interior of a bullet. I have seen literally thousands of bullets, deformed and undeformed,
after penetrating tissue and tissue simulants. Some were bent, some torn in two or more pieces,
but to have a cross-section sheared out is physically impossible. (David Mantik, JFK Assassination
Paradoxes, KDP, 2022, p. 21)

In his 2005 book The JFK Myths, S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n explains the 6.5 mm "fragment" seen on the autopsy x-rays cannot be from an FMJ bullet in response to Dr. Michael Baden's attempt to use the object as evidence for the debunked cowlick entry site:

It was interesting that it [Baden's description of the 6.5 mm object] was phrased that way, ducking the
obvious fact that it cannot be a bullet fragment and is not that near to their [the HSCA medical panel's]
proposed entry site. A fully jacketed WCC/MC bullet will deform as it penetrates bone, but it will not
fragment on the outside of the skull.

When they break up in the target, real bullets break into irregular pieces of jacket, sometimes complete
enough to contain pieces of the lead core, and a varying number of irregular chunks of lead core. It cannot
break into circular slices, especially one with a circular bite out of the edge. (pp. 184-185)

So, I'm still wondering where you got the idea that "no FMJ bullet in the known history of forensic science has deposited a fragment, much less multiple fragments, at/near the entry point when striking a skull."

I trust you're no longer wondering about this.

The HSCA Forensic Pathology Panel (FPP) majority were aware of this problem in relation to the 6.5 mm object on the AP skull x-ray. They had to address the issue thanks to Howard Donahue and Dr. Wecht. They said it was "rare" for FMJ bullets to deposit a fragment at/near the entry site on a skull, yet they did not cite a single case where this had occurred, either in their own experience or in cases documented in forensic literature. The FPP consisted of nine experienced forensic pathologists, yet none of them said they had ever seen an FMJ bullet behave in this manner, and they did not cite a single case published in forensic literature where this had occurred.

To avoid strained nit-picking, I guess I should clarify that never in the history of forensic science has an FMJ bullet deposited a fragment from its cross-section at/near the entry site on a skull. According to the lone-gunman theory, an FMJ bullet performed this impossible feat, and later its nose and tail were recovered from the limousine.

[Tim Nickerson]

This is just silly. I already refuted this silliness. Please go back and read my previous replies on this issue. You are blundering horrendously.

You didn't refute anything. What you did was claim that the fragment imbedded in the forehead was the 7 x 2 mm fragment removed by Humes. Which is itself silliness, considering that the 7 x 2 mm fragment removed by Humes was in the brain behind the right eye.

[Tim Nickerson]

You're quoting from my section on whether FMJ bullets leave numerous fragments inside a skull, not whether they ever deposit a fragment at/near the entry point on a skull. This is another severe problem with the lone-gunman scenario: FMJ bullets do not shatter into dozens of fragments when they penetrate skulls. The FMJ bullets in the WC's wound ballistics test did not do this. Nor did the FMJ bullets in Lattimer's test. Nor did the FMJ bullets in the Failure Analysis test.

FMJ bullets do shatter into dozens of fragments when they penetrate skulls. The FMJ bullets in the WC's wound ballistics test did so.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62296#relPageId=30

The FMJ bullets in Lattimer's test did as well.



Not sure about the FMJ bullets in the Failure Analysis test

[Michael T. Griffith]

FMJ bullets do shatter into dozens of fragments when they penetrate skulls. The FMJ bullets in the WC's wound ballistics test did so. The FMJ bullets in Lattimer's test did as well. Not sure about the FMJ bullets in the Failure Analysis test.

Do you not read replies before you reply to them? Do you just read the first few lines and then reply? Did you not read what Dr. Vincent DiMaio said on this issue? Did you not read what Dr. Larry S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n said on this issue? You said nothing about their observations. Did you not read my article "Forensic Science and President Kennedy's Head Wounds"? 

No, the FMJ bullets in the WC and Lattimer tests did not shatter into dozens of fragments. The picture you show from Lattimer's test only shows fewer than 10 fragments, and all but one of them is sizable. In my above-mentioned article, I include photos of the fragments from the WC's test. They do not show dozens of fragments.

You might want to back and read what DiMaio and S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n said about FMJ bullets fragmenting in skulls. When they do fragment, they do not shatter into dozens of tiny pieces but only into a few fragments.

You didn't refute anything. What you did was claim that the fragment imbedded in the forehead was the 7 x 2 mm fragment removed by Humes. Which is itself silliness, considering that the 7 x 2 mm fragment removed by Humes was in the brain behind the right eye.

Oh my goodness. This is just bizarre. As I proved, Humes himself said he removed the 7 x 2 mm fragment. You have no clue what you are talking about.

I refer interested readers to my previous replies on this issue.

You still have not explained the McDonnel fragment and the fragments beneath the 6.5 mm object's image that were detected by Dr. David Mantik and were confirmed by him and Dr. Michael Chesser via optical-density measurements. Even Dr. John Fitzpatrick, the ARRB's forensic radiologist, acknowledged there is a bullet fragment in the rear of the skull on the lateral x-rays.

Yet, you still deny there were any bullet fragments in the back of the skull, because you know they could not have been deposited by an FMJ bullet.

[Tim Nickerson]

Do you not read replies before you reply to them? Do you just read the first few lines and then reply? Did you not read what Dr. Vincent DiMaio said on this issue? Did you not read what Dr. Larry S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n said on this issue? You said nothing about their observations. Did you not read my article "Forensic Science and President Kennedy's Head Wounds"? 

No, the FMJ bullets in the WC and Lattimer tests did not shatter into dozens of fragments. The picture you show from Lattimer's test only shows fewer than 10 fragments, and all but one of them is sizable. In my above-mentioned article, I include photos of the fragments from the WC's test. They do not show dozens of fragments.

You might want to back and read what DiMaio and S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n said about FMJ bullets fragmenting in skulls. When they do fragment, they do not shatter into dozens of tiny pieces but only into a few fragments.

I read your whole reply. My post was a response to that one particular claim of yours. It's a false claim by you. The FMJ bullets in the WC and Lattimer tests did shatter into dozens of fragments. Almost 2 dozen fragments are seen in the photo of the fragments recovered from skull 8167 at Edgewood. There are 8 visible fragments of good size in the photo provided by Lattimer and he noted that there were many more smaller fragments seen in X-Rays.

Neither DiMaio nor S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n ever stated that FMJ bullets do not shatter into dozens of fragments when they penetrate skulls. In fact, S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n said just the opposite. No doubt, DiMaio did as well.

[Tim Nickerson]

Oh my goodness. This is just bizarre. As I proved, Humes himself said he removed the 7 x 2 mm fragment. You have no clue what you are talking about.

I refer interested readers to my previous replies on this issue.

You still have not explained the McDonnel fragment and the fragments beneath the 6.5 mm object's image that were detected by Dr. David Mantik and were confirmed by him and Dr. Michael Chesser via optical-density measurements. Even Dr. John Fitzpatrick, the ARRB's forensic radiologist, acknowledged there is a bullet fragment in the rear of the skull on the lateral x-rays.

Yet, you still deny there were any bullet fragments in the back of the skull, because you know they could not have been deposited by an FMJ bullet.

You proved that Humes himself said that he removed the 7 x 2 mm fragment? Wow! That's amazing. Good job on your part.   

Humes removed the 7mm x 2mm from the brain behind the right eye.  You claimed that the fragment imbedded in the forehead was the 7 x 2 mm fragment removed by Humes.

There were not two fragments imbedded in the back of the skull.

[Michael T. Griffith]

I read your whole reply. My post was a response to that one particular claim of yours. It's a false claim by you. The FMJ bullets in the WC and Lattimer tests did shatter into dozens of fragments. Almost 2 dozen fragments are seen in the photo of the fragments recovered from skull 8167 at Edgewood.

Wrong. CE 857 and CE 859 show the fragments from one of the FMJ bullets from the WC's wound ballistics test. The photos in these exhibits show that this test missile broke up into far fewer fragments than we see in the JFK autopsy skull x-rays. CE 857 shows 8 sizable fragments and perhaps 8-10 smaller ones in a plastic box. To the right of the box, it shows two large bullet fragments with the front end crushed. CE 859 shows 10 sizable fragments and maybe 15 smaller ones. There is some question about whether CE 859 contains fragments from other test bullets, given the x-rays of the skulls used in the test. But, even assuming it does not, it still proves that the fragmentation of the test bullets was very different from that of the ammo that hit JFK's skull.

We also know this from the x-rays of one of the skulls from the WC's test (see CE 861 and CE 862). Those x-rays show minimal fragmentation, and the fragmentation they show is markedly different from the fragmentation seen on the autopsy skull x-rays. The JFK skull x-rays show about 50 fragments, with about 40 concentrated in a "snowstorm" of fragments in the right-front part of the skull and with several in the back of the skull. This bears no resemblance to the WC's test, nor to Lattimer's test, nor to the Failure Analysis test.

You can see the above-mentioned CEs in my article "Forensic Science and President Kennedy's Head Wounds": https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jYMrT9P4ab2BtENAqI_0dQSEY6IJWczi/view.

The test skull x-rays suggest that CE 857 and/or CE 859 include fragments from more than one test bullet, since they (the x-rays) show minimal fragmentation, and since Dr. Olivier, the man who conducted the test, told Howard Donahue that the test bullets did not explode or disintegrate and that they broke up into only a few fragments. Even Arlen Specter noticed that the two exhibits contain different amounts of fragments.

Even taken at face value, CEs 857 and 859 contradict the fragmentation seen in the JFK autopsy skull x-rays. Also, the fragmentation seen in the x-rays of the test skull looks nothing like the fragmentation in the JFK skull x-rays.

There are 8 visible fragments of good size in the photo provided by Lattimer and he noted that there were many more smaller fragments seen in X-Rays.

8 visible fragments plus no more than 10-15 smaller ones does not equal 50 fragments with a snowstorm concentration in the right front and with several fragments in the back of the skull. And I should add that Lattimer was caught more than once outright falsifying his test results.

If an FMJ bullet had hit JFK's head, we would not see 40 some fragments clustered together to form a "snowstorm" image with other fragments trailing upward from the snowstorm, nor would we see several fragments in the rear outer table of the skull. The right-front fragment snowstorm alone is clear evidence that a high-velocity frangible bullet hit JFK's head in the right front. An FMJ bullet would never fragment in this manner.

Neither DiMaio nor S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n ever stated that FMJ bullets do not shatter into dozens of fragments when they penetrate skulls. In fact, S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n said just the opposite. No doubt, DiMaio did as well.

You somehow horribly misread DiMaio and S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n. DiMaio specifically said that if skull x-rays show dozens of fragments this rules FMJ ammo as the ammo, and S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n said the 6.5 mm object cannot be from an FMJ bullet because an FMJ bullet would never leave fragments from its cross-section in that location. In fact, just to nail this down, let's read what DiMaio and S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n said once again:

DiMaio:

In x-rays of through-and-through gunshot wounds, the presence of small
fragments of metal along the wound track virtually rules out full metal-
jacketed ammunition.. . . In rare instances, involving full metal-jacketed
centerfire rifle bullets, a few small, dust-like fragments of lead may be
seen on x-ray if the bullet perforates bone. One of the most characteristic
x-rays and one that will indicate the type of weapon and ammunition used
is that seen from centerfire rifles firing hunting ammunition. In such a case,
one will see a “lead snowstorm” [Figure 11.4]. In high-quality x-rays,
the majority of the fragments visualized have a fine “dust-like” quality.
Such a picture rules out full metal-jacketed rifle ammunition or a shotgun slug.
(Gunshot Wounds, CRC Press, Boca Raton, 1999, p. 318, emphasis added).

Are we clear now? DiMaio most certainly did say that FMJ bullets will not shatter into dozens of fragments inside a skull. Indeed, he said that if a skull x-ray shows a "snowstorm" of fragments, this rules out FMJ ammo.

For more forensic experts who've noted that FMJ bullets will not break into dozens of fragments when penetrating skulls, see my above-mentioned article: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jYMrT9P4ab2BtENAqI_0dQSEY6IJWczi/view.

S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n:

Here's what S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n said about this in 1998 in explaining why the 6.5 mm object could not be a bullet fragment:

I’m not sure just what that 6.5 mm fragment is. One thing I’m sure it is not is a cross-section
from the interior of a bullet. I have seen literally thousands of bullets, deformed and undeformed,
after penetrating tissue and tissue simulants. Some were bent, some torn in two or more pieces,
but to have a cross-section sheared out is physically impossible. (David Mantik, JFK Assassination
Paradoxes, KDP, 2022, p. 21)

In his 2005 book The JFK Myths, S-t-u-r-d-i-v-a-n explains the 6.5 mm "fragment" seen on the autopsy x-rays cannot be from an FMJ bullet in response to Dr. Michael Baden's attempt to use the object as evidence for the debunked cowlick entry site:

It was interesting that it [Baden's description of the 6.5 mm object] was phrased that way, ducking the
obvious fact that it cannot be a bullet fragment and is not that near to their [the HSCA medical panel's]
proposed entry site. A fully jacketed WCC/MC bullet will deform as it penetrates bone, but it will not
fragment on the outside of the skull.

When they break up in the target, real bullets break into irregular pieces of jacket, sometimes complete
enough to contain pieces of the lead core, and a varying number of irregular chunks of lead core. It cannot
break into circular slices, especially one with a circular bite out of the edge. (pp. 184-185)

Are we clear now?