JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
LNers Can't Explain the Two Back-of-Head Bullet Fragments
Joe Elliott:
--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on January 20, 2023, 06:27:41 PM ---What is required is a ballistics expert who understands the forces applied to a bullet in contacting different target materials at different speeds and different orientations and who has a thorough understanding of physics and strength of materials and can relate that to the actual physical damage that occurred. SPersonivan appears to qualify as such an expert but not the Haags. The only expert who has provided any of that kind of analysis is SPersonivan and I see a number of inconsistencies with his analysis.
--- End quote ---
Ok. SPersonivan appears to qualify as such an expert, but not the Haags. I don't see why the Haags don't appear to be, but ok.
Then who is the ballistic expert who disagrees with Larry SPersonivan as far as CE-399 is concerned?
You disagree with Larry SPersonivan, but you are not a ballistic expert. Many others disagree with Larry SPersonivan, but they aren't ballistic experts either. So who is? Who "appears" to be an ballistic expert, like Larry SPersonivan, but who also thinks the CE-399 could not have wounded JFK and Connally?
Joe Elliott:
--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on January 20, 2023, 06:27:41 PM ---
It is not difficult to accept that CE399 is consistent with having passed through JFK's neck. The question is whether:
* it entered JBC to the right of his right scapula and struck the fifth rib creating a tunneling wound
* then pulverized the last 10 cm of that rib,
* then exited just under his right nipple,
* then passed through his jacket sleeve and french cuff causing a longish jagged tear in the cuff in only one location about 1 inch above the end of the cuff,
* then struck the distal fourth of the radius causing an oblique wound wound approximately two cm in length with considerable contusions at the margins,
* created a comminuted fracture of the radius with at least 3 bone pieces being broken off the radius (2 x 1 cm + 1 x 3mm)
* then passed through the forearm leaving several small lead flakes in the wound
* then exited on the volar or palm side of the wrist leaving a 1 cm slit 2 cm above the crease of the wrist
* entered the left thigh on an oblique angle along the direction of the femur appearance being consistent with having struck by the butt end of an intact missile.
* having exited the thigh leaving a bullet whose only deformation is a lateral compression on on the butt end
SPersonivan does not explain each step in terms of the force that the bullet would experience in each of those impacts in order to create the damage observed. For example, he does not identify the pressure required to fracture the radius as it did and relate that to the speed of the bullet and whether at that speed, the bullet would deform if hit nose-on or sideways etc. He avoids it entirely. Not only did this bullet fracture the radius, which is the hardest bone in the body, causing a large irregular entry hole in the cuff and leaving flecks of lead in the wound, it did this after obliterating 10 cm of rib.
But did not fracture a radius bone, if I recall correctly.
I can. No one has ever fired a WCC/MC bullet from a Carcano, doing the damage done to the rib and radius of JBC, and having the characteristics remotely similar to those on JBC's wounds and clothing and looking anything like CE399.
--- End quote ---
This is simply not true. In his book "The JFK Myths", Larry SPersonivan discusses the speed the bullet had when it:
First struck JFK's neck.
Exited JFK's neck.
First struck Connally's back.
First struck Connally's rib, the first direct strike on bone.
First struck Connally's wrist bone.
First struck Connally's thigh.
He estimates the speed of the bullet, when it struck Connally's rib, was 1,400 fps. And it was travelling sideways, at that point.
He states that when travelling point first, the bullet won't start to deform once it drops below 1,700 fps. But when travelling sideways, if won't start to deform once it drops below 1,400 fps. So, when the bullet first struck Connally's rib, it was just going fast enough to start to deform. Hence the side of the bullet being squeezed and lead being pushed out of it's base. The speed of the bullet quickly dropped below 1,400 fps and did not deform any further, even after striking the much stronger wrist bone.
Larry SPersonivan does not discuss the pressures involved, only the speed of the bullet needed to deform. He discusses this pretty thorughly.
--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on January 20, 2023, 06:27:41 PM ---And that is entirely apart from the fact that the evidence from the people who were there who said that JFK and JBC were hit by separate bullets.
--- End quote ---
But what witness could possibly view two different people at the same time? One's concentration would, at best, be only one either Kennedy or Connally. They can't watch one with the left eye and the other with the right. And the only witness who had an opinion on which one they saw get wounded first, Mrs. Connally, was not looking at either man at z-222. Who are the other witnesses who you are referring to?
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: Joe Elliott on January 21, 2023, 03:14:41 AM ---This is simply not true. In his book "The JFK Myths", Larry SPersonivan discusses the speed the bullet had when it:
First struck JFK's neck.
Exited JFK's neck.
First struck Connally's back.
First struck Connally's rib, the first direct strike on bone.
First struck Connally's wrist bone.
First struck Connally's thigh.
He estimates the speed of the bullet, when it struck Connally's rib, was 1,400 fps. And it was travelling sideways, at that point.
He states that when travelling point first, the bullet won't start to deform once it drops below 1,700 fps. But when travelling sideways, if won't start to deform once it drops below 1,400 fps. So, when the bullet first struck Connally's rib, it was just going fast enough to start to deform. Hence the side of the bullet being squeezed and lead being pushed out of it's base. The speed of the bullet quickly dropped below 1,400 fps and did not deform any further, even after striking the much stronger wrist bone.
--- End quote ---
A bit of revision from his HSCA testimony (1 HSCA 396):
Mr. MATHEWS. So at what velocity will a bullet begin to deform?
Mr. SPersonIVAN. OK, the bullet would begin to deform, if it strikes say, soft tissue, at something-remember, the density of soft tissue is around one, the density of water, and it will begin to deform at something in excess of 2,000 feet per second. In other words, at the muzzle velocity of the Mannlicher-Carcano. If it strikes bone, which is twice as dense, then it would begin to deform nose on at approximately 1,400 feet per second. If the bullet turns sideways, which is a weaker orientation, it will deform down to around 1,000 feet feet per second.
--- Quote ---Larry SPersonivan does not discuss the pressures involved, only the speed of the bullet needed to deform. He discusses this pretty thorughly.
--- End quote ---
And that is the problem. We can determine the strength of the bullet and bone in terms of yield pressure (force per unit area at which the molecular bonds within the material break). The force is the time rate of change of momentum of the material the bullet is striking. That can only be determined by experiment. He does not refer to any experimental data.
Try firing a MC bullet so that it hits a rib bone sideways at 1400 feet/sec. I think you will find, as SPersonivan originally said, it will be deforming significantly.
--- Quote ---But what witness could possibly view two different people at the same time? One's concentration would, at best, be only one either Kennedy or Connally. They can't watch one with the left eye and the other with the right. And the only witness who had an opinion on which one they saw get wounded first, Mrs. Connally, was not looking at either man at z-222. Who are the other witnesses who you are referring to?
--- End quote ---
A witness does not have to view two people at the same time. At least 20 people said that JFK reacted to the first bullet and at least 40 said that there was a long pause between 1 and 2 and a much shorter space between 2 and 3. That absolutely excludes a second shot SBT, which seems to be the current view. When you combine that with the Connallys being adamant that JBC was hit in the back on the second shot, that pretty much excludes the SBT.
Joe Elliott:
--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on January 22, 2023, 06:08:44 PM ---A bit of revision from his HSCA testimony (1 HSCA 396):
Mr. MATHEWS. So at what velocity will a bullet begin to deform?
Mr. SPersonIVAN. OK, the bullet would begin to deform, if it strikes say, soft tissue, at something-remember, the density of soft tissue is around one, the density of water, and it will begin to deform at something in excess of 2,000 feet per second. In other words, at the muzzle velocity of the Mannlicher-Carcano. If it strikes bone, which is twice as dense, then it would begin to deform nose on at approximately 1,400 feet per second. If the bullet turns sideways, which is a weaker orientation, it will deform down to around 1,000 feet feet per second.
And that is the problem. We can determine the strength of the bullet and bone in terms of yield pressure (force per unit area at which the molecular bonds within the material break). The force is the time rate of change of momentum of the material the bullet is striking. That can only be determined by experiment. He does not refer to any experimental data.
--- End quote ---
But scientists commonly change their estimates over time. Cranks come up with a number and stick with it no matter what. Scientists has given wildly different estimates on the age of the Earth, before eventually settling on 4.567 billion years during the last generation. While many 'Scientific Creationist' have consistently given the true age as 6,000 years, and do so to this day. Changing one's estimates on measured data is not the sign of a poor scientist. Not changing one's estimate could be a sign that one is dealing with a crank.
Early experiments indicated to Mr. SPersonivan deformation velocities of 1,400 to 1,000 fps, later experiments with better film and instruments refined this to 1,700 to 1,400 fps. Nothing is more common in science than getting better data over time.
--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on January 22, 2023, 06:08:44 PM ---Try firing a MC bullet so that it hits a rib bone sideways at 1400 feet/sec. I think you will find, as SPersonivan originally said, it will be deforming significantly.
--- End quote ---
Modern slow motion film can accurately measure the speed of a bullet. Why don't CTers demonstrate what happens when a bullet strikes bone at 1,400 fps? Instead of providing definitive film or the work of ballistic experts who do this sort of work, they only use words to describe how CE399 could not have come out with so little deformation.
It's true. I have not done the work myself. But the NOVA video of Luke and Michael Haag testing the SBT at least looks like good valid experiments. Where we can see a bullet travelling in slow motion and tumbling.
The videos of pro CT, anti CE 399 experiments are, well, non existent. The CTers don't even go through the motions of conducting scientific experiments.
Where is the video of someone shooting through a ballistic gel block six inches wide, then into another ballistic gel block ten inches wide with rib bones embedded in it, then catching the bullet in a third ballistic gel block? Run this experiment ten times and show me that all ten bullets look vastly more deformed than CE 399. Or at least have a ballistic expert claim his has done this experiment. I have seen nothing like this.
By the way, I left out another block with an array of wrist bones. This makes the experiment more complicated. And doesn't matter, because by the time the bullet reaches the wrist bone, it is going too slow to be further deformed. But they can add a fourth block if they wish.
--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on January 22, 2023, 06:08:44 PM ---A witness does not have to view two people at the same time. At least 20 people said that JFK reacted to the first bullet and at least 40 said that there was a long pause between 1 and 2 and a much shorter space between 2 and 3. That absolutely excludes a second shot SBT, which seems to be the current view. When you combine that with the Connallys being adamant that JBC was hit in the back on the second shot, that pretty much excludes the SBT.
--- End quote ---
Man. I can tell that you are no skeptic. No skeptic would put so much faith in eyewitnesses.
At least 20 people said that JFK reacted first? Could this have something to do with most people being focused on the Kennedy's? How many people in the crowd were telling crowd were telling themselves "Oh, this is so exciting! Here comes the Governor and his wife, along with that other couple"? And the Secret Service. Were they concentrating more on Kennedy or Connally? Who was concentrating more on Connally?
Nellie Connally was adamant that John Connally was hit after JFK. John Connally was adamant that his wife could not be mistaken. If she saw it that way, that's the way it happened. Of course, the Zapruder film shows both Kennedy and Connally appearing to react at the same time as they emerged from behind the sign. And absolutely shows Nellie Connally looking at neither man at this time. Oh, yes, this is the perfect witness.
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: Joe Elliott on January 24, 2023, 03:31:32 AM ---But scientists commonly change their estimates over time. Cranks come up with a number and stick with it no matter what. Scientists has given wildly different estimates on the age of the Earth, before eventually settling on 4.567 billion years during the last generation. While many 'Scientific Creationist' have consistently given the true age as 6,000 years, and do so to this day. Changing one's estimates on measured data is not the sign of a poor scientist. Not changing one's estimate could be a sign that one is dealing with a crank.
Early experiments indicated to Mr. SPersonivan deformation velocities of 1,400 to 1,000 fps, later experiments with better film and instruments refined this to 1,700 to 1,400 fps. Nothing is more common in science than getting better data over time.
--- End quote ---
Did they? If so, where is the data? SPersonivan does not even acknowledge the change, let alone provide an explanation for it.
--- Quote ---Modern slow motion film can accurately measure the speed of a bullet. Why don't CTers demonstrate what happens when a bullet strikes bone at 1,400 fps? Instead of providing definitive film or the work of ballistic experts who do this sort of work, they only use words to describe how CE399 could not have come out with so little deformation.
--- End quote ---
It should not be done by anyone who has already formed a firm conclusion about what the result should be.
Besides, is not simply a matter of having a bullet strike a bone. This bone was a living bone embedded in a human body. Since the bullet did not shatter the fifth rib at the point where it struck, it must have struck obliquely. Yet it left this 3/8" x 3/8" hole in the back of the shirt:
It pushed the entire fifth rib inward (causing a fracture where it joins the spine). It then passed through the rib driving bone shards into the lower right lung before exiting below the right nipple. It then passed through the shirt and jacket, right jacket sleeve and french cuff leaving this jagged long hole:
--- Quote ---The videos of pro CT, anti CE 399 experiments are, well, non existent. The CTers don't even go through the motions of conducting scientific experiments.
--- End quote ---
We don't need pro CT, anti CE399 experiments. We need objective testing. Besides, based on the evidence one can easily accept the WC conclusion but conclude that all three bullets struck JFK and/or JBC.
--- Quote ---At least 20 people said that JFK reacted first? Could this have something to do with most people being focused on the Kennedy's?
--- End quote ---
If they were so focused on the Kennedys, which seems reasonable, why would not a single witness observe that JFK did not react to the first shot and continued to smile and wave for several seconds after the phantom missed first shot?
--- Quote ---Nellie Connally was adamant that John Connally was hit after JFK. John Connally was adamant that his wife could not be mistaken. If she saw it that way, that's the way it happened. Of course, the Zapruder film shows both Kennedy and Connally appearing to react at the same time as they emerged from behind the sign. And absolutely shows Nellie Connally looking at neither man at this time. Oh, yes, this is the perfect witness.
--- End quote ---
She also said that she did not look back at JFK after the second shot and said that she immediately reached out and pulled him toward her. She is looking back at JFK prior to z270.
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