JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
LNers Can't Explain the Two Back-of-Head Bullet Fragments
Joe Elliott:
--- Quote from: Andrew Mason on January 19, 2023, 04:41:20 PM ---It is controversial because no one has ever been able to produce a similar bullet fired at 2000 fps that has done the kind of damage done to JFK and JBC looking anything like CE399.
* “It doesn’t make a difference how beautiful your guess is. It doesn't make a difference how smart you are, who made the guess or what his name is. If it disagrees with experiment, it’s wrong.” — Richard Feynman (1964)
I am not aware of any ballistics expert other than SPersonivan who has examined, let alone opined on, the CE399/SBT hypothesis.
--- End quote ---
The Nova JFK COld Case video can be seen below:
https://aguilarforensics.weebly.com/firearms--tool-marks/nova-jfk-cold-case-full-video
At 34:39, Luke Haag shows how a bullet can be squeezed to resemble CE-399.
At 35:20, Luke Haag states that there is no reason not to conclude that the SBT as proposed by Specter was incorrect.
So Luke Haag agrees with Larry SPersonivan.
So, I make it at 2 to 0.
Can anyone come up with a real ballistic expert who disagrees? After almost 60 years, not one?
* * * * *
And I recall a Discovery Channel, from about 15 years ago, that had ballistic gel models of JFK and Connally, with embedded ribs and an array of wrist bones, that produced a bullet that was not greatly dissimilar to CE-399. Bent in two places (not one like CE-399) because it went through two "ribs", not one. But reasonably close.
I don't recall if this experiment was conducted by ballistic experts but it looked pretty reasonable to me. So I don't think one can say that no one has ever fired a WCC/MC bullet at 2,000 fps and ended up with anything resembling CE-399.
Steve M. Galbraith:
--- Quote from: Joe Elliott on January 20, 2023, 03:15:37 AM ---The Nova JFK COld Case video can be seen below:
https://aguilarforensics.weebly.com/firearms--tool-marks/nova-jfk-cold-case-full-video
At 34:39, Luke Haag shows how a bullet can be squeezed to resemble CE-399.
At 35:20, Luke Haag states that there is no reason not to conclude that the SBT as proposed by Specter was incorrect.
So Luke Haag agrees with Larry SPersonivan.
So, I make it at 2 to 0.
Can anyone come up with a real ballistic expert who disagrees? After almost 60 years, not one?
* * * * *
And I recall a Discovery Channel, from about 15 years ago, that had ballistic gel models of JFK and Connally, with embedded ribs and an array of wrist bones, that produced a bullet that was not greatly dissimilar to CE-399. Bent in two places (not one like CE-399) because it went through two "ribs", not one. But reasonably close.
I don't recall if this experiment was conducted by ballistic experts but it looked pretty reasonable to me. So I don't think one can say that no one has ever fired a WCC/MC bullet at 2,000 fps and ended up with anything resembling CE-399.
--- End quote ---
I believe the Discovery Channel special was "Inside the Target Car"? But they only simulated the/a head shot not the back shot. Unless you're thinking of another one? I too vaguely recall another special in addition to the NOVA show duplicating something you mentioned with #399. Either both of us are losing it or neither one of us is. Let's agree to go with the latter explanation.
That "Target Car" can be viewed here: https://archive.org/details/JFKInsideTheTargetCar
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: Joe Elliott on January 20, 2023, 03:15:37 AM ---The Nova JFK COld Case video can be seen below:
https://aguilarforensics.weebly.com/firearms--tool-marks/nova-jfk-cold-case-full-video
At 34:39, Luke Haag shows how a bullet can be squeezed to resemble CE-399.
At 35:20, Luke Haag states that there is no reason not to conclude that the SBT as proposed by Specter was incorrect.
So Luke Haag agrees with Larry SPersonivan.
--- End quote ---
What is required is a ballistics expert who understands the forces applied to a bullet in contacting different target materials at different speeds and different orientations and who has a thorough understanding of physics and strength of materials and can relate that to the actual physical damage that occurred. SPersonivan appears to qualify as such an expert but not the Haags. The only expert who has provided any of that kind of analysis is SPersonivan and I see a number of inconsistencies with his analysis.
It is not difficult to accept that CE399 is consistent with having passed through JFK's neck. The question is whether:
* it entered JBC to the right of his right scapula and struck the fifth rib creating a tunneling wound
* then pulverized the last 10 cm of that rib,
* then exited just under his right nipple,
* then passed through his jacket sleeve and french cuff causing a longish jagged tear in the cuff in only one location about 1 inch above the end of the cuff,
* then struck the distal fourth of the radius causing an oblique wound wound approximately two cm in length with considerable contusions at the margins,
* created a comminuted fracture of the radius with at least 3 bone pieces being broken off the radius (2 x 1 cm + 1 x 3mm)
* then passed through the forearm leaving several small lead flakes in the wound
* then exited on the volar or palm side of the wrist leaving a 1 cm slit 2 cm above the crease of the wrist
* entered the left thigh on an oblique angle along the direction of the femur appearance being consistent with having struck by the butt end of an intact missile.
* having exited the thigh leaving a bullet whose only deformation is a lateral compression on on the butt end
SPersonivan does not explain each step in terms of the force that the bullet would experience in each of those impacts in order to create the damage observed. For example, he does not identify the pressure required to fracture the radius as it did and relate that to the speed of the bullet and whether at that speed, the bullet would deform if hit nose-on or sideways etc. He avoids it entirely. Not only did this bullet fracture the radius, which is the hardest bone in the body, causing a large irregular entry hole in the cuff and leaving flecks of lead in the wound, it did this after obliterating 10 cm of rib.
--- Quote ---And I recall a Discovery Channel, from about 15 years ago, that had ballistic gel models of JFK and Connally, with embedded ribs and an array of wrist bones, that produced a bullet that was not greatly dissimilar to CE-399. Bent in two places (not one like CE-399) because it went through two "ribs", not one. But reasonably close.
--- End quote ---
But did not fracture a radius bone, if I recall correctly.
--- Quote ---I don't recall if this experiment was conducted by ballistic experts but it looked pretty reasonable to me. So I don't think one can say that no one has ever fired a WCC/MC bullet at 2,000 fps and ended up with anything resembling CE-399.
--- End quote ---
I can. No one has ever fired a WCC/MC bullet from a Carcano, doing the damage done to the rib and radius of JBC, and having the characteristics remotely similar to those on JBC's wounds and clothing and looking anything like CE399.
And that is entirely apart from the fact that the evidence from the people who were there who said that JFK and JBC were hit by separate bullets.
John Iacoletti:
Is it really sufficient to argue that CE399 could possibly have gone through both men and caused all those wounds if there is no evidence that it did?
Joe Elliott:
--- Quote from: Steve M. Galbraith on January 20, 2023, 03:05:02 PM ---I believe the Discovery Channel special was "Inside the Target Car"? But they only simulated the/a head shot not the back shot. Unless you're thinking of another one? I too vaguely recall another special in addition to the NOVA show duplicating something you mentioned with #399. Either both of us are losing it or neither one of us is. Let's agree to go with the latter explanation.
That "Target Car" can be viewed here: https://archive.org/details/JFKInsideTheTargetCar
--- End quote ---
It was another show. I don't remember the name of it. The Discovery Channel had three different one to two hour shows on the assassination, something like ones made in 2003, 2007 and 2008, as I recall.
The show I am think of, they used two "torsos", of ballistic gel, one modeled after JFK's torso and another after Connally's. These "torsos" had to be kept refrigerated to simulate a human body (for some reason I do not know). So they only had a few minutes to fire the shot once the models were carefully positioned. In addition, they had a third target, an array of bones meant to simulate Connally's wrist. And a fourth target, of just ballistic gel, meant to simulate Connally's thigh, and to capture the bullet itself.
They were firing from a tower they constructed themselves, that was moving some because the wind picked up.
The result was the bullet when through the first three targets but did not embed itself in the forth target, the "Connally thigh". Instead it bounced off. But the bullet resembled CE-399. It was a bit more bent. And had two indentations in it's side, instead of just one like CE 399. This was because as the bullet travelled sideways through the Connally "torso", it went through two ribs instead of one.
I do not recall the tests being supervised by real ballistic experts, like the equivalent of a Luke Haag or a Michael Haag. But it did appear to be a good experiment.
I hope this triggers your memory of that TV show.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version