The Position of the Bolt on the MC

[Walt Cakebread]

As I state in the OP, this one was for you Walt, unfortunately I'm going to need you to really hold my hand through this one.
I've studied this section of the Alyea film in close detail and am convinced the bolt was in the same position I highlighted when it was picked off the ground (I will try to demonstrate this later - for now let's just ASSUME the bolt is in this position when it is picked up).

Questions: Is the clip still in place if the bolt is in this position?
                If the rifle was fired three times where would we expect to see the bolt?
                How can a live round be dropped in the chamber if the clip is in place?

If I'm asking silly questions, just be patient. I want to understand what's going on here as I believe it may be important.

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As I state in the OP, this one was for you Walt, unfortunately I'm going to need you to really hold my hand through this one.
I've studied this section of the Alyea film in close detail and am convinced the bolt was in the same position I highlighted when it was picked off the ground (I will try to demonstrate this later - for now let's just ASSUME the bolt is in this position when it is picked up).

You're convinced that the bolt handle ( knob) is in the same position in the picture as it was when the carcano was picked up from the floor. .....And,  You are absolutely correct.

Questions: Is the clip still in place if the bolt is in this position?
 The short answer is....YES.    The clip has no bearing on the position of the bolt.   The clip merely holds the cartridges ( stacked  ) so the elevator can feed the top cartridge in the clip up and into the annular space on the face of the bolt.

               If the rifle was fired three times where would we expect to see the bolt?

The number of times the rifle is fired is irrelevant ....However,, If that rifle had been fired three times as the liars claimed then that should have indicated that there were four cartridges in the clip to begin the firing process.  If three had been fired  then the fourth one would have been the live round. The live round would automatically have been inserted into the face of the bolt when the spent third round was ejected and the shooter by reflex action would have closed and LATCHED  the bolt handle and the rifle would have been ready to fire that live round. ( The empty clip would normally drop out of the bottom of the magazine when the last cartridge is extracted from it by the forward motion of the bolt)    However....As you've pointed out that bolt handle is NOT down in the latched and ready to fire position.....The bolt handle is in exactly the position it would be in if an unknowing yokel attempted to put the live cartridge in the chamber by dropping it into the barrel. 

                How can a live round be dropped in the chamber if the clip is in place?

Simple as dropping an ice cube in your favorite drink.....  You pull the bolt back to the open position, and with the muzzle down toward the floor you simply drop the live round into the barrel...and let Mr gravity go to work.....

Dan ...Please don't worry about asking questions if I haven't made myself clear.....  This is a very important piece of evidence and I want  you and all readers to understand that the rifle was NOT fired that day and whoever hid it was not at all familiar with the carcano.

[Mitch Todd]

This one's for Walt really, but anyone with a decent knowledge of rifles might be able to help me out (as I have literally zero practical knowledge of firearms).

In the picture below the bolt (more specifically, the part of the bolt that is gripped in order to reload) is picked out with a red arrow.

What does the position of this bolt mean (if that makes any sense)?
What would it mean if the MC was picked off the floor with the bolt in this position?

The bolt handle (this being the proper term) looks like it's been rotated up and the bolt pulled back a centimeter or two, so that the handle is partially in the slot cut through the top of the receiver bridge. This could have happened because someone fired a shot and pushed the bolt forwards to reload for the next one, but decided that one more shot wasn't needed and didn't finish closing the bolt. Or it could be that Day (or some other DPD member) rotated the handle and partially extracted the bolt in order to make the rifle safe to handle before anyone picked it up. Which would be proper procedure. I'm sure there are a few other scenarios that would explain the bolt handle's position as well. You don't have to go by Walt's flights of fancy.

[Charles Collins]

I found this animation quite a few years ago. I thought it might be helpful.

Here is an animated gif I created from the original MP4 file:





And here is a link to the webpage where I found it in case there is any trouble with the gif file and to give the original creator credit for this one:


https://imgur.com/gallery/30ws11v/comment/225371056?nc=1

[Walt Cakebread]

The bolt handle (this being the proper term) looks like it's been rotated up and the bolt pulled back a centimeter or two, so that the handle is partially in the slot cut through the top of the receiver bridge. This could have happened because someone fired a shot and pushed the bolt forwards to reload for the next one, but decided that one more shot wasn't needed and didn't finish closing the bolt. Or it could be that Day (or some other DPD member) rotated the handle and partially extracted the bolt in order to make the rifle safe to handle before anyone picked it up. Which would be proper procedure. I'm sure there are a few other scenarios that would explain the bolt handle's position as well. You don't have to go by Walt's flights of fancy.

"The bolt handle (this being the proper term) looks like it's been rotated up and the bolt pulled back a centimeter or two, so that the handle is partially in the slot cut through the top of the receiver bridge."

How do you know the bolt handle has been retracted "a centimeter or two" ??    Why couldn't it be in that slot because it was stopped there during the forward motion of the bolt at that point by a cartridge in the firing chamber.....    FYI ...I've placed a cartridge in the firing  chamber of my carcano and that position of the bolt handle in the slot, that you've noted and pointed out, ( thank you)  is precisely where the bolt is seen in the picture.   ( Clearly this indicates that someone attempted to place the live round in the chamber by simply dropping it into the chamber.)

 I'm sure there are a few other scenarios that would explain the bolt handle's position as well. You don't have to go by Walt's flights of fancy.

Well Mr Todd, since you're running your mouth....why don't you list "a few other scenarios"  that would explain the bolt handle being in the position that it is seen in the picture?

[Dan O'meara]

The bolt handle (this being the proper term) looks like it's been rotated up and the bolt pulled back a centimeter or two, so that the handle is partially in the slot cut through the top of the receiver bridge. This could have happened because someone fired a shot and pushed the bolt forwards to reload for the next one, but decided that one more shot wasn't needed and didn't finish closing the bolt. Or it could be that Day (or some other DPD member) rotated the handle and partially extracted the bolt in order to make the rifle safe to handle before anyone picked it up. Which would be proper procedure. I'm sure there are a few other scenarios that would explain the bolt handle's position as well. You don't have to go by Walt's flights of fancy.

Just to deal with a couple of points here Mitch.
When the rifle is discovered it appears from multiple testimonies that there are orders not to touch the rifle until Day has taken pictures of it in situ. Day is the first person to actually handle the rifle (so we can discard the notion someone other than Day moved the bolt handle before it was removed from it's hiding place).
Day has this to say about removing the rifle:

Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.

So Fritz is the first person to touch the bolt handle after it is removed from it's hiding place and this is what the Alyea footage appears to show.
This is the bit I'm trying to understand. Am I correct in assuming the following:
To insert the clip into the rifle the bolt handle is pulled backwards and the clip is inserted from the top.
The bolt grip is then pushed forward to load the top bullet into the chamber[?]
After firing the first bullet the bolt handle is pulled backwards, the next bullet in the clip is forced upwards, the bolt handle is pushed forward forcing this next bullet into the chamber.
So the situation we see in the Alyea footage is that the third bullet has been supposedly fired, the bolt handle has been pulled back, the fourth bullet in the clip has been forced upwards but has not been pushed into the chamber.

In this scenario how does Fritz eject this live round?

[Mitch Todd]

"The bolt handle (this being the proper term) looks like it's been rotated up and the bolt pulled back a centimeter or two, so that the handle is partially in the slot cut through the top of the receiver bridge."

How do you know the bolt handle has been retracted "a centimeter or two" ??    Why couldn't it be in that slot because it was stopped there during the forward motion of the bolt at that point by a cartridge in the firing chamber.....    FYI ...I've placed a cartridge in the firing  chamber of my carcano and that position of the bolt handle in the slot, that you've noted and pointed out, ( thank you)  is precisely where the bolt is seen in the picture.   ( Clearly this indicates that someone attempted to place the live round in the chamber by simply dropping it into the chamber.)

 I'm sure there are a few other scenarios that would explain the bolt handle's position as well. You don't have to go by Walt's flights of fancy.

Well Mr Todd, since you're running your mouth....why don't you list "a few other scenarios"  that would explain the bolt handle being in the position that it is seen in the picture?

I say the bolt's been pulled back a cm or two because the cocking piece nut appears to extend to the end of the receiver's tail is, if not a bit further.  Just turning the bolt wouldn't bring the CP nut that far to the rear.

I've already brought up two scenarios that would easily explain the position of the bolt, and see no reason to rack my brain for more. "I'm sure there are a few other scenarios" is really just leaving space open for anyone else to chime in with their own ideas. You have certainly thrown in your own two pennies.

[Walt Cakebread]

I found this animation quite a few years ago. I thought it might be helpful.

Here is an animated gif I created from the original MP4 file:





And here is a link to the webpage where I found it in case there is any trouble with the gif file and to give the original creator credit for this one:


https://imgur.com/gallery/30ws11v/comment/225371056?nc=1

Thank you Charles....It is an excellent cutaway of a carcano being fired ....however it is a bit fast for me....Eventhough I don't need the video to know how a carcano operates ..... Some one who knows how to stop the action could really benefit from the video. If a person could stop the bolt closing just before the handle is pushed down to latch the bolt could see that the cartridge is nearly fully inserted into the chamber.....and if that cartridge was not seated in the face of the bolt the cartridge would prevent the bolt from closing all the way and latching into the ready to fire position.