Brown/Weidmann, Mini-Debate?

[Bill Brown]

I was being generous.  I too believe that Callaway got to the scene no more than three to four minutes after hearing the shots.

No need to be generous. I am actually convinced that Callaway got to the scene in a little less than three minutes. The reason why I am convinced is that, some years ago, I actually walked and ran the distance that the killer and Callaway walked and ran and I found I could be done in three minutes. Having said this, you are now talking about a wider subject than when Callaway helped to load Tippit into the ambulance. Let's try to resolve that first, shall we?

Here's the thing... He makes his report on Tippit's squad car radio at 1:19/1:20.

I don't believe for a second that the times on the DPD transcripts are correct, making it erroneous to rely on them for anything.  I have an audio recording that starts when Bowley makes his call and ends 4.27 min later. To the best of my knowledge it's a continuous recording. Now, here's the thing; Bowley's call lasted 48 seconds. Exactly 12 seconds later ambulance 602 reports "code 5" confirming it's departure from the funeral home.

According to the official narrative, the Funeral Home received the call for an ambulance at 1:18, but only 20 seconds after 602's code 5 call the DPD dispatcher (who did not call 1:18) calls out "10-4, 603 and 602. 1:19". Now, how is that possible?
If we assume that Bowley started making his call at exactly 1:17:00, the time sequence described above doesn't get us beyond the 1:18:20 mark. However, if Bowley started making his call at around 1:17:40, that would explain the 40 seconds gap, but it would also reduce the time the ambulance had to get to the scene by 40 seconds.

Then, exactly 40 seconds after his initial call the dispatcher calls out "10-4, 605. 1:19", which seems to fit the timeline far better as, according to the actual recording, that second call is made roughly 2 minutes after Bowley started to make his radio call at 1:17. It is however only 6 seconds before Callaway gets on the DPD radio.

So, the first thing we need to resolve is which is the correct 1:19 call. This is important because the 40 seconds between the first and the second call makes all the difference for determining the correct sequence of events, as I will show later on in this discussion. One thing we can safely rule out, based on the actual recordings is, IMO, that Callaway made his call at or after the 1:20 mark.

Do you have an opinion about which 1:19 call is the correct one?

I don't believe for a second that the times on the DPD transcripts are correct, making it erroneous to rely on them for anything.

First... What is your opinion on the maximum that the DPD transcripts/tapes could be off?  Two minutes maximum?  Three minutes maximum?  More?

If we assume that Bowley started making his call at exactly 1:17:00, the time sequence described above doesn't get us beyond the 1:18:20 mark. However, if Bowley started making his call at around 1:17:40, that would explain the 40 seconds gap, but it would also reduce the time the ambulance had to get to the scene by 40 seconds.

Bowley begins his call on the squad car radio at 1:17:40, as opposed to 1:17:00.

[Bill Brown]

Secondly, I've stated many times that Callaway saw the killer run south on Patton for the full block and then watched the killer turn west onto Jefferson; nothing about the alley.  My Callaway timeline has him watching the killer get to Jefferson and head west before he (Callaway) starts to make his "good hard run" up to the shooting scene.  I think it was in the cop-killer thread, you said this:

Except he didn't go by the office at all, but instead, according to Callaway, ran down an alley halfway down Patton, between 10th and Jefferson.

What made you say this?

If Callaway saw the killer run into the alley halfway down Patton, then Callaway would begin his "good hard run" up to the shooting scene quite a few seconds earlier (since the killer would reach the alley halfway down Patton versus taking longer while traveling the full length of the block down Patton before reaching Jefferson).

Callaway said he asked the fleeing gunman "Hey man, what in the hell is going on?"  This took place when the gunman was roughly fifty-six feet from Callaway (basically across the street from Callaway).  If you know where Callaway was standing (and you say that you do know), this places the fleeing gunman on Patton well past the alley already.

Callaway testified to this:

Mr. DULLES. May I ask what course he was taking when you last saw him?
Mr. CALLAWAY. He was going west on Jefferson Street.
Mr. DULLES. West on Jefferson Street?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

In 1986, in the London trial, Callaway said this, when describing the path taken by the fleeing gunman:

"He (the killer) said something to me which I didn't understand.  Then he proceeded to run toward Jefferson, through this front yard (pointing on a map to the front yard at the corner of Patton and Jefferson) right here and proceeded west on Jefferson Street."

[Martin Weidmann]

First... What is your opinion on the maximum that the DPD transcripts/tapes could be off?  Two minutes maximum?  Three minutes maximum?  More?


Bowley begins his call on the squad car radio at 1:17:40, as opposed to 1:17:00.

First... What is your opinion on the maximum that the DPD transcripts/tapes could be off?  Two minutes maximum?  Three minutes maximum?  More?

No way to say for sure. J.C. Bowles told the HSCA that the clocks used by the dispatchers could be off by some two minutes from a master clock on the telephone room wall, which itself only provided what he called "official time".

A master clock on the telephone room wall was connected to the City Hall system. This clock reported "official" time. Within the dispatcher's office there were numerous other time giving and time recording devices, both in the telephone room and in the radio room. Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time. However, their purpose was to stamp the time, day and date on incoming calls. While they were reliable at this, they were not synchronized as stated in the Committee report. Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock.

He also said;

When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done.

and pointed out that the time calls made by the dispatchers could be different by a minute or so from "actual" time.

In addition to the times stamped on calls by telephone operators, the radio operators stamped the "time" as calls were dispatched, and the "time" that officers completed an assignment and returned to service. Radio operators were also furnished with 12-hour digital clocks to facilitate their time references when they were not using call sheets containing stamped time. These digital clocks were not synchronized with any time standard. Therefore, the time "actual" and time "broadcast" could easily be a minute or so apart

So, it's anybody's guess by how much the time calls of the dispatchers differed from real time. But regardless of how much time it is exactly, this information alone shows IMO that the time calls can not be relied upon.


Bowley begins his call on the squad car radio at 1:17:40, as opposed to 1:17:00.

I take it this means that you are going with the first 1:19 call as being the right one, is that correct? What is the basis for this conclusion?

[Martin Weidmann]

Secondly, I've stated many times that Callaway saw the killer run south on Patton for the full block and then watched the killer turn west onto Jefferson; nothing about the alley.  My Callaway timeline has him watching the killer get to Jefferson and head west before he (Callaway) starts to make his "good hard run" up to the shooting scene.  I think it was in the cop-killer thread, you said this:

What made you say this?

If Callaway saw the killer run into the alley halfway down Patton, then Callaway would begin his "good hard run" up to the shooting scene quite a few seconds earlier (since the killer would reach the alley halfway down Patton versus taking longer while traveling the full length of the block down Patton before reaching Jefferson).

Callaway said he asked the fleeing gunman "Hey man, what in the hell is going on?"  This took place when the gunman was roughly fifty-six feet from Callaway (basically across the street from Callaway).  If you know where Callaway was standing (and you say that you do know), this places the fleeing gunman on Patton well past the alley already.

Callaway testified to this:

Mr. DULLES. May I ask what course he was taking when you last saw him?
Mr. CALLAWAY. He was going west on Jefferson Street.
Mr. DULLES. West on Jefferson Street?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

In 1986, in the London trial, Callaway said this, when describing the path taken by the fleeing gunman:

"He (the killer) said something to me which I didn't understand.  Then he proceeded to run toward Jefferson, through this front yard (pointing on a map to the front yard at the corner of Patton and Jefferson) right here and proceeded west on Jefferson Street."

From where Callaway stood he had a clear line of sight of the corner of Patton and Jefferson, so he could easily observe where the killer went while starting to make his "good hard run". Do you believe that Callaway would have stood still and waiting until he lost sight of the killer before he started to run? If so, based on what do you believe that?

[Bill Brown]

First... What is your opinion on the maximum that the DPD transcripts/tapes could be off?  Two minutes maximum?  Three minutes maximum?  More?

No way to say for sure. J.C. Bowles told the HSCA that the clocks used by the dispatchers could be off by some two minutes from a master clock on the telephone room wall, which itself only provided what he called "official time".

A master clock on the telephone room wall was connected to the City Hall system. This clock reported "official" time. Within the dispatcher's office there were numerous other time giving and time recording devices, both in the telephone room and in the radio room. Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time. However, their purpose was to stamp the time, day and date on incoming calls. While they were reliable at this, they were not synchronized as stated in the Committee report. Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock.

He also said;

When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done.

and pointed out that the time calls made by the dispatchers could be different by a minute or so from "actual" time.

In addition to the times stamped on calls by telephone operators, the radio operators stamped the "time" as calls were dispatched, and the "time" that officers completed an assignment and returned to service. Radio operators were also furnished with 12-hour digital clocks to facilitate their time references when they were not using call sheets containing stamped time. These digital clocks were not synchronized with any time standard. Therefore, the time "actual" and time "broadcast" could easily be a minute or so apart

So, it's anybody's guess by how much the time calls of the dispatchers differed from real time. But regardless of how much time it is exactly, this information alone shows IMO that the time calls can not be relied upon.

Correct.  Bowles said the dispatch clocks could sometimes be off by as much as two minutes ether way.  So then you agree that Bowley got on the squad car radio sometime between 1:15 and 1:19.  Is this correct, you agree with this?

[Bill Brown]

Secondly, I've stated many times that Callaway saw the killer run south on Patton for the full block and then watched the killer turn west onto Jefferson; nothing about the alley.  My Callaway timeline has him watching the killer get to Jefferson and head west before he (Callaway) starts to make his "good hard run" up to the shooting scene.  I think it was in the cop-killer thread, you said this:

What made you say this?

If Callaway saw the killer run into the alley halfway down Patton, then Callaway would begin his "good hard run" up to the shooting scene quite a few seconds earlier (since the killer would reach the alley halfway down Patton versus taking longer while traveling the full length of the block down Patton before reaching Jefferson).

Callaway said he asked the fleeing gunman "Hey man, what in the hell is going on?"  This took place when the gunman was roughly fifty-six feet from Callaway (basically across the street from Callaway).  If you know where Callaway was standing (and you say that you do know), this places the fleeing gunman on Patton well past the alley already.

Callaway testified to this:

Mr. DULLES. May I ask what course he was taking when you last saw him?
Mr. CALLAWAY. He was going west on Jefferson Street.
Mr. DULLES. West on Jefferson Street?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir.

In 1986, in the London trial, Callaway said this, when describing the path taken by the fleeing gunman:

"He (the killer) said something to me which I didn't understand.  Then he proceeded to run toward Jefferson, through this front yard (pointing on a map to the front yard at the corner of Patton and Jefferson) right here and proceeded west on Jefferson Street."

From where Callaway stood he had a clear line of sight of the corner of Patton and Jefferson, so he could easily observe where the killer went while starting to make his "good hard run". Do you believe that Callaway would have stood still and waiting until he lost sight of the killer before he started to run? If so, based on what do you believe that?

Callaway saw the gunman reach the corner of Patton and Jefferson and saw the man proceed west on Jefferson.  I do not believe that Callaway started his "good hard run" until the fleeing gunman reached the corner of Patton and Jefferson.  In my opinion, if one is making a "good hard run" in a northerly direction on Patton, he is not looking to the south over his shoulder to see what is going on behind him.

Setting my opinion aside, have you heard of B.D. Searcy?  After seeing the gunman proceed west on Jefferson, Callaway then told B.D. Searcy to keep an eye on the gunman while he (Callaway) was going to go up to the shooting scene to see what was going on.  Then, after saying that to Searcy, Callaway proceed to make his "good hard run" up to the shooting scene.

[Bill Brown]

Also, you skipped past this:

Except he didn't go by the office at all, but instead, according to Callaway, ran down an alley halfway down Patton, between 10th and Jefferson.

This matters.  It's directly related to when Callaway would have started his "good hard run".

Why did you say that Callaway said the fleeing gunman ran down the alley?