Colors of Blue and Gold

[Martin Weidmann]

I'm not backing either side in this war. I just have a more nuanced view of the war (and how the US should respond to it) than you and most Liberals do.

Most Liberals in the US and Europe view this war as "good vs evil"/"black and white". I see mostly gray and I don't apply the binary framework of good vs evil. There are good and bad elements on all sides in this war.

The fact that you think my neutrality means I support Russia suggests that the binary framework describes your view. That's fine with me. I'm only trying to help you better understand my point of view.

In my opinion, the US should be pushing for a ceasefire and avoiding doing things that could potentially lead to a major escalation or expansion of the war to other countries. Keep the fire contined to Ukraine and Russia. The US shouldn't get distracted from other important issues like Climate Change and managing our geopolitical competition with China.


The Korean war never officially ended. Sometimes countries just stop shooting at each other and it becomes a frozen conflict.

Increasingly, people are looking to the Korean war as a model of how this conflict could end. At least in terms of both sides ceasing to shoot at each other while territorial issues and other issues remain unresolved...


So you think ethnic cleansing and discrimination against ethnic Russians in Ukraine is fair? What part of democracy or Western Liberalism embraces discrimination and opposition to cultural pluralism?
 
My view is, if Ukraine really intends to be a pluralistic democracy, they should follow the model of Canada. Which includes Quebec, a province that maintains French culture and language while the rest of Canada is predominantly Anglo-American culture and speaks English.


It's true. The Ukrainian rebel militias formed in eastern Ukraine are allied with Russia. Today, they've been absorbed into the Russian army.

I just have a more nuanced view of the war

Hilarious... your kind of nuance is that the victim should simply give the bully what he wants.

Most Liberals in the US and Europe view this war as "good vs evil"/"black and white". I see mostly gray

Which says it all... There is no gray. One side is the aggressor and the other side is the victim. If Russia had not invaded Ukraine none of this would ever have happened and many innocent people would still be alive. It is as simple as that. Pretending there is some sort of gray area is ignoring the cold hard facts.

The fact that you think my neutrality means I support Russia suggests that the binary framework describes your view.

Your own arguments betray your lack of neutrality. And who wants to be neutral when it is beyond obvious that only one side is the aggressor?

In my opinion, the US should be pushing for a ceasefire

Everybody should be pushing for the end of this war, not just a ceasefire which would allow Russia the opportunity to regroup. May I remind you that Ukraine has within it's borders the biggest nuclear plant in Europe. Far greater than Chernobyl. It's currently under Russian control and the people that work there are warning for a major disaster because of the way the Russians act. International atomic agencies have asked both parties to avoid further damage to the plant and Putin refused to enter into any kind of agreement to safe guard half of the planet from nuclear exposure. Where is your "nuance" on that one?

and avoiding doing things that could potentially lead to a major escalation or expansion of the war to other countries.

That's NATO's job and it is working. There is no way that Putin will try to attack a NATO country. He may be a fanatic but he's not an idiot.

Increasingly, people are looking to the Korean war as a model of how this conflict could end. At least in terms of both sides ceasing to shoot at each other while territorial issues and other issues remain unresolved...

In the heart of Europe and after the Iron Curtain affair? No way... The Ukrainians are a proud people. I have spoken to quite a few recently and they are all united; there is no way they will allow Russia to keep any part of their country.

So you think ethnic cleansing and discrimination against ethnic Russians in Ukraine is fair?

It's not ethnic cleansing. Pro-Russians have a choice. They either decide to stay in Ukraine (and thus abide by their laws) or, if they want, they can go back to Russia. Yes, that's fair. What isn't fair is being Pro-Russian and starting a war to steal a part of a country just because you want to continue to live there.

What part of democracy or Western Liberalism embraces discrimination and opposition to cultural pluralism?

So, you have already decided that Ukraine discriminates Pro-Russian people living in their own country? Way to go, Mr. "I'm neutral"! Ukraine never discriminated against Pro-Russians. Under the previous, corrupt, President it actually was the other way around.

My view is, if Ukraine really intends to be a pluralistic democracy, they should follow the model of Canada. Which includes Quebec, a province that maintains French culture and language while the rest of Canada is predominantly Anglo-American culture and speaks English.

Does the French area have the French President in charge and do the French have troops on the ground there? Talk about day dreaming..... pfffff

It's true. The Ukrainian rebel militias formed in eastern Ukraine are allied with Russia. Today, they've been absorbed into the Russian army.

Oh boy.... words fail me now.... Could you please get another hobby.

[Jon Banks]

I just have a more nuanced view of the war

Hilarious... your kind of nuance is that the victim should simply give the bully what he wants.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Ukraine has stood up to Russia and fought them to a stalemate. That's impressive and worthy of pride for Ukrainians. But despite their early success in the war, they're still unlikely to militarily defeat Russia. That's the cold hard truth.

Ukraine doesn't have a military manufacturing base that can match Russia's and they have three times fewer citizens than Russia. The Russians rightly believe that time is on their side because objectively, they have far more advantages in a long drawn out war than Ukraine does.

Most Liberals in the US and Europe view this war as "good vs evil"/"black and white". I see mostly gray

Which says it all... There is no gray. One side is the aggressor and the other side is the victim.

We'll have to agree to disagree. To me, this war is more about Russia vs the US and NATO, than Russia vs Ukraine.

Russia doesn't want to directly go to war against NATO so they attacked Ukraine, a NATO partner country which doesn't get all the benefits that NATO member countries get.

In great power conflict, geopolitical powers prefer proxy-war over direct conflict with other nuclear powers. That kind of stuff happened throughout the Cold War. The US and USSR never fought each other directly. Instead they backed countries that fought against the US and we backed proxies that fought against the Soviets.

A similar thing happened in the Syria war over the last decade and since 2014, that largely explains what has happened in Ukraine.

Ukraine effectively is a US proxy. The Ukrainian separatist rebels were Russia's proxies.

The fact that you think my neutrality means I support Russia suggests that the binary framework describes your view.

Your own arguments betray your lack of neutrality. And who wants to be neutral when it is beyond obvious that only one side is the aggressor?

See my last comment. I don't view this war the way you do. To me, it's not Russia vs Ukraine. It's Russia vs NATO.

In my opinion, the US should be pushing for a ceasefire

Everybody should be pushing for the end of this war, not just a ceasefire which would allow Russia the opportunity to regroup.

Training and organizing an army during a hot war is very difficult if not impossible. A break would certainly benefit Ukraine's defense forces. Ukraine would be allowed to regroup, organize a new army (with F-16s and western tanks), and stock up on NATO weapons.

May I remind you that Ukraine has within it's borders the biggest nuclear plant in Europe. Far greater than Chernobyl. It's currently under Russian control and the people that work there are warning for a major disaster because of the way the Russians act. International atomic agencies have asked both parties to avoid further damage to the plant and Putin refused to enter into any kind of agreement to safe guard half of planet. Where is your "nuance" on that one?

There are lots of issues like that which will require negotiations between Ukraine and Russia or the UN and a third-party country.

There's no military solution to the problem that you described.

 There is no way that Putin will try to attack a NATO country. He may be a fanatic but he's not an idiot.

One thing we agree on.

In the heart of Europe and after the Iron Curtain affair? No way...

Yes way. See Kosovo. The forgotten war in Europe...

The Ukrainians are a proud people. I have spoken to quite a few recently and they are all united; there is no way they will allow Russia to keep any part of their country.

I too personally know Ukrainians and yes, they're very proud. But "united"?

That's harder to believe given that the country is just over 30 years old and experienced a civil war for 8 years prior to Putin's 2022 invasion.

In 2014, the Russians didn't even have to fire a shot to take Crimea because the majority of the locals supported Russia. There are parts of Ukraine where Ukrainians have a cultural or political affinity with Russia (even if they don't identify themselves as Russian).

So you think ethnic cleansing and discrimination against ethnic Russians in Ukraine is fair?

It's not ethnic cleansing. Pro-Russians have a choice. They either decide to stay in Ukraine (and thus abide by their laws) or, if they want, they can go back to Russia.

I'm a bit shocked to see you flatly defend ethnic cleansing but I respect your honesty.

If they're born in Ukraine, they're "Ukrainians". Ukrainians should have the Right to speak Russian in public the same way Canadians have the Right to speak French in public.

Ethno-nationalism is gross and usually leads to dark places (see Germany in the 1930s or Israel today).

What part of democracy or Western Liberalism embraces discrimination and opposition to cultural pluralism?

So, you have already decided that Ukraine discriminates Pro-Russian people living in their own country? Way to go, Mr. "I'm neutral"! Ukraine never discriminated against Pro-Russians. Under the previous, corrupt, President it actually was the other way around.

Dude, this stuff has been well documented by Human Rights groups long before Russia's 2022 invasion. I'm not blowing smoke up anyone's arse. Look up Amnesty International's reports on Ukraine from between 2014 and 2021.

Hell, you can look up old video clips of President Zelensky defending the Right of Ukrainians to speak Russian (he's originally a Russian speaking Ukrainian). In 2019, Zelensky camaigned as the "peace candidate" and promised to negotiate an end to their civil war. Somewhere along the way, he got sucked into the Ukrainian nationalists camp and began arresting his political opponents and banning opposition media outlets months before Putin invaded.

Ukraine is far from a stable democracy. It was a very flawed democracy even before the current war. 

[Martin Weidmann]

I have no idea what you're talking about. Ukraine has stood up to Russia and fought them to a stalemate. That's impressive and worthy of pride for Ukrainians. But despite their early success in the war, they're still unlikely to militarily defeat Russia. That's the cold hard truth.

Ukraine doesn't have a military manufacturing base that can match Russia's and they have three times fewer citizens than Russia. The Russians rightly believe that time is on their side because objectively, they have far more advantages in a long drawn out war than Ukraine does.

We'll have to agree to disagree. To me, this war is more about Russia vs the US and NATO, than Russia vs Ukraine.

Russia doesn't want to directly go to war against NATO so they attacked Ukraine, a NATO partner country which doesn't get all the benefits that NATO member countries get.

In great power conflict, geopolitical powers prefer proxy-war over direct conflict with other nuclear powers. That kind of stuff happened throughout the Cold War. The US and USSR never fought each other directly. Instead they backed countries that fought against the US and we backed proxies that fought against the Soviets.

A similar thing happened in the Syria war over the last decade and since 2014, that largely explains what has happened in Ukraine.

Ukraine effectively is a US proxy. The Ukrainian separatist rebels were Russia's proxies.


See my last comment. I don't view this war the way you do. To me, it's not Russia vs Ukraine. It's Russia vs NATO.

Training and organizing an army during a hot war is very difficult if not impossible. A break would certainly benefit Ukraine's defense forces. Ukraine would be allowed to regroup, organize a new army (with F-16s and western tanks), and stock up on NATO weapons.



There are lots of issues like that which will require negotiations between Ukraine and Russia or the UN and a third-party country.

There's no military solution to the problem that you described.


One thing we agree on.

Yes way. See Kosovo. The forgotten war in Europe...

I too personally know Ukrainians and yes, they're very proud. But "united"?

That's harder to believe given that the country is just over 30 years old and experienced a civil war for 8 years prior to Putin's 2022 invasion.

In 2014, the Russians didn't even have to fire a shot to take Crimea because the majority of the locals supported Russia. There are parts of Ukraine where Ukrainians have a cultural or political affinity with Russia (even if they don't identify themselves as Russian).


I'm a bit shocked to see you flatly defend ethnic cleansing but I respect your honesty.

If they're born in Ukraine, they're "Ukrainians". Ukrainians should have the Right to speak Russian in public the same way Canadians have the Right to speak French in public.

Ethno-nationalism is gross and usually leads to dark places (see Germany in the 1930s or Israel today).


Dude, this stuff has been well documented by Human Rights groups long before Russia's 2022 invasion. I'm not blowing smoke up anyone's arse. Look up Amnesty International's reports on Ukraine from between 2014 and 2021.

Hell, you can look up old video clips of President Zelensky defending the Right of Ukrainians to speak Russian (he's originally a Russian speaking Ukrainian). In 2019, Zelensky camaigned as the "peace candidate" and promised to negotiate an end to their civil war. Somewhere along the way, he got sucked into the Ukrainian nationalists camp and began arresting his political opponents and banning opposition media outlets months before Putin invaded.

Ukraine is far from a stable democracy. It was a very flawed democracy even before the current war.

And still he insists that he is neutral and not Pro-Russia.... wow!

[Jon Banks]

And still he insists that he is neutral and not Pro-Russia.... wow!

I’m “pro-peace” and “pro-common sense”.

War is a racket. It needs to end as soon as possible…

[Martin Weidmann]

I’m “pro-peace” and “pro-common sense”.

War is a racket. It needs to end as soon as possible…

We agree on that. War is never the answer.

[Joe Elliott]

We agree on that. War is never the answer.

Sometimes war is the answer. A lot of people died in World War II. But even more people would have died if the Allies made peace with Germany. If the Soviet Union decided not to wage war against the Nazis and just let them occupy as much land as they want to.

[Richard Smith]

Sometimes war is the answer. A lot of people died in World War II. But even more people would have died if the Allies made peace with Germany. If the Soviet Union decided not to wage war against the Nazis and just let them occupy as much land as they want to.

How exactly would "more people have died" if the allies had made peace with Germany?   There were something like 50 million people killed in that war.  Countless injured.  Cities destroyed. Maybe you can argue that the Nazis were so evil that the war was justified but not that the war saved lives.  And, of course, the situation in Ukraine is nothing like WWII.  Putin is not Hitler.  There is no genocide going on.  This is a regional conflict that predates this war by centuries.  It is more akin to Vietnam or Afghanistan than WWII.